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50poundnote  
#1 Posted : 01 October 2020 08:18:10(UTC)
50poundnote

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Now that people have started to receive the Power, Corruption & Lies box, what do we think will appear on Low-life?

Tracing paper sleeve
Newly-mastered without pre-emphasis
Let's Go (with original vocal)
Sunrise (Instrumental Rough Mix) from the Discreet Campaigns compilation
Full-length Elegia
Pumped Full Of Drugs

The Perfect Kiss 12"
Sub-culture 12"

I can't decide if the Shellshock 12" will be rolled into this or Brotherhood.
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ROCKET MICK on 01/10/2020(UTC), Milkshock on 04/10/2020(UTC)
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Fotz  
#2 Posted : 01 October 2020 08:32:52(UTC)
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I’m not entirely sure what pre emphasis is

But yeah, all of the above. Has to be the tracing paper sleeve!

Would love a remastered TPK 12” . Shellshock is a funny one, it fell halfway between Low Life and Brotherhood and it’s hard to call which box it belongs with. I’d assume the box will be white .Can’t imagine it’d be black but maybe .

Edited by user 01 October 2020 08:33:46(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 01/10/2020(UTC)
Jcp7  
#3 Posted : 01 October 2020 08:39:12(UTC)
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Pré emphasis is the reason why the sound of the original Factory CD is so low.
Yes, Sunrise (Instrumental Rough Mix) should be the priority number one.

Edited by user 01 October 2020 08:44:42(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 01/10/2020(UTC)
50poundnote  
#4 Posted : 01 October 2020 08:48:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
I’m not entirely sure what pre emphasis is


Something added during the mastering stage. The only CD without it was the Japanese disc.
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ROCKET MICK on 01/10/2020(UTC)
50poundnote  
#5 Posted : 01 October 2020 08:54:59(UTC)
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Live take of The Perfect Kiss from the video shoot that was included on the bonus CD in Retro.
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ROCKET MICK on 01/10/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#6 Posted : 01 October 2020 09:06:49(UTC)
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Crikey, Mr £50note! You're very keen! Big Grin

Not that that's a problem, of course!


I'm going to need some time to think about possible contents, but the following are definite for me:

Design:
Tracing paper sleeve for LP
Tracing paper and 4 x inserts for CD

CDs:
'Let's Go' (Vocal Version - the original 'Waiting For So Long' version)
'Sunrise' (Instrumental Rough Mix)
'As It Is When It Was' (Demo) (which was recorded during the 'Low Life' era, but might be best to sit on 'Brotherhood' though)

DVDs:
Haçienda footage from 'The Old Grey Whistle Test'
'Rock Around The Clock'
Leuven 1985 from 'Rox Box'
maybe even Barcelona 1984, from 'Estoc De Pop'

Additional:
3 x 12" - The Perfect Kiss, Sub-Culture & Shellshock

I think Shellshock fits better with this LP, and considering 'Brotherhood' could have anywhere between 4-6 singles with it (*), it might be best to ensure it is covered in the 'Low Life' box set.


* Depending if the 'Substance' era 12"s are included with the release of the 'Brotherhood' set ('State Of The Nation', 'Bizarre Love Triangle', 2 x 'True Faith', 'Touched By The Hand Of God' and, possibly, 'Blue Monday 1988'). Of course, if 'True Faith', 'Touched' and 'Blue Monday 1988' are included with the 'Substance' reissue, 'Shellshock' could just as easily be shifted to 'Brotherhood'.
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ROCKET MICK on 01/10/2020(UTC)
The Shadow  
#7 Posted : 01 October 2020 13:23:37(UTC)
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As I mentioned on another thread I would love for full length Elegia on vinyl with let’s go on B side as an additional 12”. I know it’s not in keeping with the other box sets but it would be most appreciative if anyone with any influence is reading😷
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ROCKET MICK on 01/10/2020(UTC)
50poundnote  
#8 Posted : 01 October 2020 15:07:49(UTC)
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I understand wanting it, but I don't like revisionist things like that in a "definitive" box: if it wasn't released as a 12" at the time, it shouldn't be now. That's the sort of thing that's better suited for a Record Store Day release. A one-sided 12" using the alternate band photos from the cassette edition of Low-life on the cover.
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negative1 on 01/10/2020(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 01/10/2020(UTC), Debaser on 02/10/2020(UTC), Dennis Remmer on 04/10/2020(UTC)
negative1  
#9 Posted : 01 October 2020 17:04:16(UTC)
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Agreed. no need to put out something that didn't exist at the time.

later
-1
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ROCKET MICK on 01/10/2020(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#10 Posted : 02 October 2020 00:11:29(UTC)
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full length Elegia on vinyl with let’s go on B side as an additional 12”.
Yeah, definitely gonna happen. I'm also looking forward to the Spice Girls reforming to perch naked on my park bench of choice.
Tracing paper... The full-length Elegaia even though it's about as exciting as Skegness on half-closing day... Pumped Full of Drugs... Perfect Snog 12", Snog of Death, Perfect Pit. All four Subculture single versione plus Record Mirror take.
Estoc the Cock is too wanchored in the PCL ethos for Low Life.
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ROCKET MICK on 02/10/2020(UTC)
Andy  
#11 Posted : 02 October 2020 04:43:43(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
I’m not entirely sure what pre emphasis is

But yeah, all of the above. Has to be the tracing paper sleeve!

Would love a remastered TPK 12” . Shellshock is a funny one, it fell halfway between Low Life and Brotherhood and it’s hard to call which box it belongs with. I’d assume the box will be white .Can’t imagine it’d be black but maybe .


Another peculiar thing about including Shellshock is that State of the Nation was actually recorded months before it (in Japan, around the time of the release of Low-Life). But it would be odd to include State as its release was so close to that of Brotherhood.

Edited by user 02 October 2020 04:45:57(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 02/10/2020(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#12 Posted : 02 October 2020 05:06:18(UTC)
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... And it was included on some Brotherhood CDs, I think.
As it is when it wanks would have to be Brotherhood, too. Some interesting demos with different lyrics around.
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ROCKET MICK on 02/10/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#13 Posted : 02 October 2020 07:18:56(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Michael Monkhouse Go to Quoted Post

As it is when it wanks would have to be Brotherhood, too. Some interesting demos with different lyrics around.


Yeah, I know it fits on ‘Brotherhood’ but am sure it was recorded around the time of ‘Low Life’.

There’s a gig somewhere (from around May 1985, I think) where Bernard introduces it as ‘a song so new, it isn’t even on our new LP’ or similar.

Think the song was debuted live on 17/04/85.

Edited by user 02 October 2020 07:33:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 02/10/2020(UTC)
50poundnote  
#14 Posted : 02 October 2020 07:25:13(UTC)
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I keep trying to post and get that stupid spam error message! No
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ROCKET MICK on 02/10/2020(UTC)
50poundnote  
#15 Posted : 02 October 2020 07:33:05(UTC)
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Low-life with The Perfect Kiss and Subculture

Brotherhood with Shellshock, State Of The Nation, and Bizarre Love Triangle

Substance with True Faith, TF Remix, Touched By The Hand Of God, and Blue Monday '88

(Rolls Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday '88 in on an extra CD, but preserves the track list of the original more or less)

Technique with Fine Time, FT Remix, Round & Round, Round & Remix, Run 2, World In Motion, and WIM Remix

(All the remaining remixes rolled in across 2 additional CDs)

Edited by user 02 October 2020 07:37:32(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 02/10/2020(UTC)
The Shadow  
#16 Posted : 02 October 2020 11:47:13(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
I understand wanting it, but I don't like revisionist things like that in a "definitive" box: if it wasn't released as a 12" at the time, it shouldn't be now. That's the sort of thing that's better suited for a Record Store Day release. A one-sided 12" using the alternate band photos from the cassette edition of Low-life on the cover.


Fair point. I guest he best place for it is a RSD special. Here’s to hoping.
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ROCKET MICK on 02/10/2020(UTC)
BazG  
#17 Posted : 03 October 2020 00:30:11(UTC)
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The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..
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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#18 Posted : 03 October 2020 00:41:04(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: BazG Go to Quoted Post
The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..


It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.


Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post

Leuven 1985 from 'Rox Box'


The more I think about, the more i think this shouldn’t be included. There is excellent quality footage of this gig out there in the wild already. Better to have something previously unseen included.
Of corse, I wouldn’t complain at its inclusion. It is a brilliant gig, but I’m sure there are others of a similar quality from this period.
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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC)
Debaser  
#19 Posted : 03 October 2020 03:06:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BazG Go to Quoted Post
The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..


It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.


Some people still think there's more to the story than Saville's version that he wasn't asked to do a sleeve?
Ok. Some people have convinced themselves that the earth is flat.
Jude Rogers of The Quietus thinks that the arrival of Gillian (who could barely play keyboards) had a huge affect on NO's sound.
I can't force people to stick to the facts...
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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#20 Posted : 03 October 2020 05:26:49(UTC)
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Yeah, I commented on that Gillian bit too. Bit of a generalisation. still, she's their secret weapon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only '''authority''' I know for the blank Subculture sleeve is the Paradise fanzine. I like it though.
Bernard is their secret weapon!
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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC), Debaser on 03/10/2020(UTC)
negative1  
#21 Posted : 03 October 2020 07:55:26(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: BazG Go to Quoted Post
The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..


why should they change it. they typography on the labels is cool enough.

leave things alone.

later
-1

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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#22 Posted : 03 October 2020 09:46:28(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BazG Go to Quoted Post
The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..


It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.


Some people still think there's more to the story than Saville's version that he wasn't asked to do a sleeve?
Ok. Some people have convinced themselves that the earth is flat.
Jude Rogers of The Quietus thinks that the arrival of Gillian (who could barely play keyboards) had a huge affect on NO's sound.
I can't force people to stick to the facts...


Crikey. I only made reference to a 'pipe dream' that there might be a cover that was just too late to make the single release. I even commented that it was 'unlikely'.

I don't necessarily consider that there is a cover, but I don't necessarily believe the 'fact' that 'Saville wasn't asked to do one'.
For a start, there's also the story that he heard the remix and thought it 'too shit' to do a cover for (although he presumably still designed the labels).

Saville's memory is probably fairly sketchy at best, especially 35 years after the fact. And I've lost count of the amount of times Saville, Wilson, Gretton, the band embellished facts in interviews on a whim.

I doubt we'll ever really know for definite what happened. Even if Steve covers this in his book, it's still his 'view' on what happened.
Unless someone uncovers a letter between Saville and Gretton, stating the reason for the 'non-cover', we'll always have to speculate.

For what it's worth:

I don't believe there's a cover.
I think Gillian's input is significant (just because someone isn't proficient with an instrument, doesn't mean they're bereft of ideas. Hooky, by his own admission, is tone deaf. And let's face facts, Bernard ain't Johnny Marr is he? Yet they're both masters in their own right).
I also believe that the Earth is spherical, but am happy to proved wrong. Wink

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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC)
Debaser  
#23 Posted : 03 October 2020 10:47:04(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BazG Go to Quoted Post
The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..


It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.


Some people still think there's more to the story than Saville's version that he wasn't asked to do a sleeve?
Ok. Some people have convinced themselves that the earth is flat.
Jude Rogers of The Quietus thinks that the arrival of Gillian (who could barely play keyboards) had a huge affect on NO's sound.
I can't force people to stick to the facts...


Crikey. I only made reference to a 'pipe dream' that there might be a cover that was just too late to make the single release. I even commented that it was 'unlikely'.

I don't necessarily consider that there is a cover, but I don't necessarily believe the 'fact' that 'Saville wasn't asked to do one'.
For a start, there's also the story that he heard the remix and thought it 'too shit' to do a cover for (although he presumably still designed the labels).

Saville's memory is probably fairly sketchy at best, especially 35 years after the fact. And I've lost count of the amount of times Saville, Wilson, Gretton, the band embellished facts in interviews on a whim.

I doubt we'll ever really know for definite what happened. Even if Steve covers this in his book, it's still his 'view' on what happened.
Unless someone uncovers a letter between Saville and Gretton, stating the reason for the 'non-cover', we'll always have to speculate.

For what it's worth:

I don't believe there's a cover.
I think Gillian's input is significant (just because someone isn't proficient with an instrument, doesn't mean they're bereft of ideas. Hooky, by his own admission, is tone deaf. And let's face facts, Bernard ain't Johnny Marr is he? Yet they're both masters in their own right).
I also believe that the Earth is spherical, but am happy to proved wrong. Wink



Ok my post was a bit arsy but I fear that when people offer up scenarios such as "there might be a sleeve but maybe it was done too late", they end up as some sort of semi-assumed fact or urban myth. Like the guy in the TPK video who supposedly represented Ian Curtis (nope).

So maybe my tone was a little strong in that last post.
Nonetheless, I'm with Monkhouse on Gillian. Imagine if any one of us joined the three remaining members of JD and said: "right I'm going to be instrumental in changing their sound even though I'm a newbie with no experience". Nah! As she says in the interview "I got some of my bits in". Great, more power to you Gillian, but that's not quite the same as Jude's interpretation of things.

As for the story about Saville hating the Subculture remix. What's the source?

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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC)
Jonathan  
#24 Posted : 03 October 2020 11:25:48(UTC)
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I’m fascinated to learn that they used pre emphasis On the original CD. I’ve been interested in CDs with preemphasis ever since discovering that the quake soundtrack also had it set. We don’t know whether that was by accident or not. CD players of the time should have corrected for it though. So why does it matter? (digital playback on CD-ROMs doesn’t usually apply the de emphasis curve properly, and many cd rippers don’t handle it)
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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#25 Posted : 03 October 2020 11:30:29(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post

As for the story about Saville hating the Subculture remix. What's the source?



Dunno about the source. It's again one of those things that was probably said in an article back in the day.
It's something i remember reading years ago. Lost in the mists of time.

Some references to it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-culture_(song)
https://factoryrecords.o...r-sub-culture-single.php
https://www.niagara.edu/.../singles/subculture.html
https://newordertracks.w...m/2016/08/25/subculture/
https://www.discogs.com/...Sub-Culture/master/40993

Of course, a lot of these may just be recycling the same story. I'm sure I did read something back in the early 90s though (i.e. pre-internet).

I've never truly believed this legend though (that Saville hated the mix).
From what I've read about him, he was not someone who particularly cared much about New Order's music. I can't really imagine him taking the time to listen to a test pressing, let alone dismiss it (especially enough to refuse to do a sleeve, but to design the labels).

There was an interesting discussion about the sleeve on here a year or two ago, with 50poundnote hypothesising, IIRC, that the blank sleeve and the labels may have actually been the 'design'. This was a pretty cool theory and one I could get on board with.

However, that kind of goes against what Saville says in that Discogs link above where he says 'No, all I can presume is that one was not asked for.' (which is presumably your source for Saville not being asked). However, this may have been an off the cuff remark and, if faced with the actual artwork in front of him, he may well have said 'Oh - this one? Yeah, I designed it like this on purpose'.

Who knows, eh? Smile



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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC)
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