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Eimi  
#201 Posted : 23 October 2016 17:55:08(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: komakino Go to Quoted Post

He is unnecessarily harsh on Gillian. She was never meant to be 'an equal' player from the start. She was brought in to play Barney keyboard parts and play guitar when he was signing. It was an inspired 'signing' by Rob. Where the problem lies is money - I have never, ever understood why some bands split writing royalties with all remembers - this is madness and it will come back to haunt you when invariably one or more members are pulling their weight more than others and this clearly is a problem with Gillian's part in the band and also Barney's large part in the writing and production process. It was unsustainable and I'm not surprised that we have the mess we have.

Rightly or wrongly, Hook was a man that couldn't cope in the end with whatever Neworder had become and had had enough. Whatever the court case holds, we won't see them together again.


But Gillian is not just a helping hand now. Maybe first she was brought in to help out on the guitars/synths, but it's clear her input and her contributions increased compared to when she first joined in 1981. I imagine her musical contribution is greater on the album 'Technique' or on 'World In Motion' than on 'Movement' or perhaps even 'Power, Corruption, and Lies'. Also, in the article of Stephen Hague talking about the making of 'True Faith' (the article was maybe from 10 years ago), he says that Gillian had thought of some keyboard parts or something like that. I don't remember the exact quote, but basically, she wasn't just doing what she was told even in the making of True Faith.
I don't understand why Peter Hook refuses to understand that and why he acts like she was just a touring/supporting musician.
He is definitely too harsh on her. He seems to think that she was never a true member.

PS- the lawsuit situation is about Hooky getting paid for New Order's activities without him- not about the back catalogue royalties, I think.

Edited by user 24 October 2016 02:37:53(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 23/10/2016(UTC)
five hates six  
#202 Posted : 24 October 2016 05:58:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: komakino Go to Quoted Post
Whatever you think of Hook, the book is certainly much more interesting than Chapter & Verse. Much of what went on was severely at odds of the image of New Order when I was growing up with them in the 1980's.

Hook and Sumner are very different characters and in a sense, bands need that. There is nothing worse when bands have songwriters that are all the same, as you in effect end up with one songwriter. However, it seems there was a constant battle of what Hook and Sumner thought New Orders sound should be.

I've read both books and you have to read somewhere in between the lines. Hook does seem a little obsessed with Barney and seems insecure - not unreasonably - that his role was slowing getting written out or at the very least down by the de facto leader, 'Barry Summer'.

You can't help agree with some of Hooky's points. i.e New Orders excruciating lack of diversity and back catalogue of their live set, turning into the band they spent years to avoid, change in Barney's vocals and my favourite, criticism of the worst track by New Order or in fact any band, 'Rock The Shack'.Tongue

He is unnecessarily harsh on Gillian. She was never meant to be 'an equal' player from the start. She was brought in to play Barney keyboard parts and play guitar when he was signing. It was an inspired 'signing' by Rob. Where the problem lies is money - I have never, ever understood why some bands split writing royalties with all remembers - this is madness and it will come back to haunt you when invariably one or more members are pulling their weight more than others and this clearly is a problem with Gillian's part in the band and also Barney's large part in the writing and production process. It was unsustainable and I'm not surprised that we have the mess we have.

Rightly or wrongly, Hook was a man that couldn't cope in the end with whatever Neworder had become and had had enough. Whatever the court case holds, we won't see them together again.


Can't disagree with any of that. Rather naive, I know, but my overall perception of the New Order and Joy Division aesthetic I loved in the 80's is in sharp contrast to the tensions, off-stage behaviour and general nonsense that went on all along - evidently from the very early days. I suppose, in that sense, the Factory image was hugely effective and achieved it's aim. I always remember one of them - either Hooky or Bernard - more or less saying back in the 80's that it would all come out eventually, and it would be one of the greatest stories ever told......

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ROCKET MICK on 24/10/2016(UTC)
Jonathan  
#203 Posted : 24 October 2016 06:19:19(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Eimi Go to Quoted Post
But Gillian is not just a helping hand now. Maybe first she was brought in to help out on the guitars/synths, but it's clear her input and her contributions increased compared to when she first joined in 1981. I imagine her musical contribution is greater on the album 'Technique' or on 'World In Motion' than on 'Movement' or perhaps even 'Power, Corruption, and Lies'. Also, in the article of Stephen Hague talking about the making of 'True Faith' (the article was maybe from 10 years ago), he says that Gillian had thought of some keyboard parts or something like that. I don't remember the exact quote, but basically, she wasn't just doing what she was told even in the making of True Faith.
I don't understand why Peter Hook refuses to understand that and why he acts like she was just a touring/supporting musician.
He is definitely too harsh on her. He seems to think that she was never a true member.


Its clear from Michael Butterworth's book that Gillian's contribution in the P,C&L era was substantial. From the "Girl In A Band" documentary we know she also wrote the majority of "World In Motion" too. Perhaps she didn't contribute as much during the Republic phase of the group, but I'm not sure that reflects her entire career (and I don't think we can assume a linear extrapolation either). I've yet to read exactly what Hooky wrote, though.
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komakino  
#204 Posted : 24 October 2016 06:33:25(UTC)
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I think the reason the legal case is such a mess is the definition of whether the band had split or not.

I wouldn't say that Substance makes that actually 100% clear in the sense there was one meeting where it ended. Peter Hook clearly thinks the band had split, in which case he is entitled to x amount. However, the band clearly think that they had not. Reading in between the lines, they, Neworder made a dog's dinner of it. You cannot mess around with company law - it is black and white. Do any of them really know?

Neworder never officially split in 1993 either, they just stopped working together, so if I had to guess the band had not 'technically split' but I think the outcome will be that Hook will certainly get a lot more out of it than he is currently getting, without getting his potential full entitlement because of the ambiguity of the so called split.

One thing is certain, the lawyers are having a field day a they thrive on situations like this. Whatever you think of Neworder business wise, they are little better than Factory.

Edited by user 24 October 2016 06:34:35(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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truefaith1.0  
#205 Posted : 24 October 2016 13:44:21(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dennis Remmer Go to Quoted Post
Just finished the eBook. I wish I hadn't read it frankly. Its causing delays in my next reviews.

Note to self: must focus on the music... must focus on the music...

My lasting impression: Bitching and whinging. Caligulan debauchery & gold standard drug and alcohol abuse held up as laddish kudos. Gross mistreatment of partners (in all directions). And waste. So much waste.

If Hook's intention was to rip open his fanbase's last vestige of blissful ignorance by laying bare his/their inner sanctum's addled, powdered, pus-filled carry-on, then he's nailed it. What's weird is in-between his stories of blow jobs in the alley, you get these verbose descriptions of studio terminology, and song recollections that in most cases repeat a mantra of: (paraphrasing) "Sumner's a c^&t but geez he's good, Stephen didn't do much unless he did, Gillian did almost nothing unless she did, and my bits were increasingly mixed out unless they weren't - in the 15 minutes that I wasn't paralytic (again - ha ha)."

Inside New Order indeed. Through its arse with a fucking endoscope. Dead




Bring on Stephen's book. Quick.




I am only 70 pages into the book but what you have written here sums up those pages pretty well. Not sure I can face into the rest of the book if it is as negative and depressing as this. The constant reference to Barney as "a twat but then he was a brilliant musician/lyricist but he is still a twat" is tiresome. I am going to have to re-read Barney's book because I don't seem to recall the constant snipping at Hooky.

Steve's book could be one to look forward to alright. If he deploys his quirky sense of humour, it will be a cracking read.

TF1.0
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Eimi  
#206 Posted : 24 October 2016 14:34:05(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jonathan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Eimi Go to Quoted Post
But Gillian is not just a helping hand now. Maybe first she was brought in to help out on the guitars/synths, but it's clear her input and her contributions increased compared to when she first joined in 1981. I imagine her musical contribution is greater on the album 'Technique' or on 'World In Motion' than on 'Movement' or perhaps even 'Power, Corruption, and Lies'. Also, in the article of Stephen Hague talking about the making of 'True Faith' (the article was maybe from 10 years ago), he says that Gillian had thought of some keyboard parts or something like that. I don't remember the exact quote, but basically, she wasn't just doing what she was told even in the making of True Faith.
I don't understand why Peter Hook refuses to understand that and why he acts like she was just a touring/supporting musician.
He is definitely too harsh on her. He seems to think that she was never a true member.


Its clear from Michael Butterworth's book that Gillian's contribution in the P,C&L era was substantial. From the "Girl In A Band" documentary we know she also wrote the majority of "World In Motion" too. Perhaps she didn't contribute as much during the Republic phase of the group, but I'm not sure that reflects her entire career (and I don't think we can assume a linear extrapolation either). I've yet to read exactly what Hooky wrote, though.


I haven't read the book either but I've read this thread and some of the reviews on Amazon. Thanks for the info too.
I still think Hooky doesn't really think she's important. I get that impression.

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ROCKET MICK on 25/10/2016(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#207 Posted : 24 October 2016 23:05:21(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Eimi Go to Quoted Post


I still think Hooky doesn't really think she's important. I get that impression.



You may be right!
Here's something I wrote years ago and nothing's changed my mind since then so I'll just copy 'n' paste (like porn):
I think his comments here and elsewhere undermining The Other Two's contributions to the New Order cannon are more a reflection of his own shit-stirring tactics than the reality. For a start, pinpointing exactly how much an individual gives to a song is harder than my vicar's tackle during Grange Hill, which is why most artists don't bother - the classic example is Lennon-McCartney which was used as a kind of fits-all moniker, though it's obvious that (for example) Yesterday is a Paul track, Give Peace a Chance a John track. Plus I've read Procession was mainly Steve's... World in Motion was mainly Gillian's on the basis of her and Steve's Reportage theme (Bernard, 'This may be the way of the future')... Avalanche is The Other Two, surely... And on all releases from 87 to 97 (I'm including the Rest Of and Video 586 'cause I'm a silly little arse) Hooky is the least present, but this is probably more to do with poptastic limpwristed producers than his initial contribution. (The obvious case is Hague on Republic... In '92 Hook said the new album would be rockier anbd in 93 he told a guitar mag he liked to feed a bassline into the equipment then play over it, but Hague hadn't used his overtracking on songs like World.)
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ROCKET MICK on 25/10/2016(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#208 Posted : 24 October 2016 23:10:01(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: truefaith1.0 Go to Quoted Post

Steve's book could be one to look forward to alright.
TF1.0


Can't wait.
'Yeah, did some things with Joy Division and the some more things with New Order. It was like, y'know - there's Joy Division innit but ere ang on, he's dead now so we better be New Order right, Rob? Oops e's dead too, better be New Order anyway. Don't know really, coulda stopped or been Joy Division or New Order and we, um, decided to be New Order cos we - well, seemed like a good idea at the time. Eh, Tony? Oops. So - yeah, there yer go, I guess. It was - Joy Divsion to New Order and I guess - well I don't really remember.'
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ROCKET MICK on 25/10/2016(UTC)
Isi  
#209 Posted : 25 October 2016 03:14:32(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: truefaith1.0 Go to Quoted Post
I am going to have to re-read Barney's book because I don't seem to recall the constant snipping at Hooky.


Bernard barely refers to Hooky until the final sections, where he describes the fall out. I think that's his way of snubbing Hooky. Although, I think Steve and Gillian also only gets a few mentions. Its an odd choice, to write a book about being in joy division and new order, but not describing your relationships with the members, apart from a bit about Ian.
"I haven't time to sympathise, with all this nonsense and your lies"
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ROCKET MICK on 25/10/2016(UTC)
Deceiver  
#210 Posted : 25 October 2016 03:23:50(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Michael Monkhouse Go to Quoted Post
And on all releases from 87 to 97 (I'm including the Rest Of and Video 586 'cause I'm a silly little arse) Hooky is the least present, but this is probably more to do with poptastic limpwristed producers than his initial contribution. (The obvious case is Hague on Republic... In '92 Hook said the new album would be rockier anbd in 93 he told a guitar mag he liked to feed a bassline into the equipment then play over it, but Hague hadn't used his overtracking on songs like World.)


Even if you've read Inside New Order, it's still difficult to gauge the contributions. Hook repeats in the book and elsewhere, lately, that the lyrics were written together up until Republic. I noticed he never goes into exactly what lines he contributed, which is surprising, as he isn't usually coy. If Sumner is writing lyrics, and the others were chipping in with comments like hours rhymes with flowers, it would be harsh on Sumner to say it was a joint effort. By his own admission all Hook did much of the time was put bass over a finished track. Maybe there is a certain amount denial with Hook unable to accept Sumner is the primary songwriter. Rather than suing him, he should be grateful Sumner split the shares equally for so long...

Edited by user 25 October 2016 03:25:02(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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lee  
#211 Posted : 26 October 2016 06:06:12(UTC)
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I honestly don't believe a lot of what he's said I think he's purposely trying to cause trouble with a lot of what Bernard apparently said and did against Gillian

He even tries to cause a bit of grief for him by mentioning him saying the Vikings annoyed him

The book should''ve come with a free wooden spoon
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ROCKET MICK on 26/10/2016(UTC)
Cranelane  
#212 Posted : 26 October 2016 13:45:08(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Deceiver Go to Quoted Post


Even if you've read Inside New Order, it's still difficult to gauge the contributions. Hook repeats in the book and elsewhere, lately, that the lyrics were written together up until Republic. I noticed he never goes into exactly what lines he contributed, which is surprising, as he isn't usually coy. If Sumner is writing lyrics, and the others were chipping in with comments like hours rhymes with flowers, it would be harsh on Sumner to say it was a joint effort. By his own admission all Hook did much of the time was put bass over a finished track. Maybe there is a certain amount denial with Hook unable to accept Sumner is the primary songwriter. Rather than suing him, he should be grateful Sumner split the shares equally for so long...


There is a slight dip in quality in New Orders lyrics from Get Ready onwards, whether that is because the other band members were no longer contributing or not is anyone's guess, I never had an issue with Bernard's lyrics until then tbh but some of the lines on Get Ready in particular do jar, especially Slow Jam which for me is a career low point. Bernard had more than proved himself as a decent lyricist before then of course.
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ROCKET MICK on 26/10/2016(UTC)
Deceiver  
#213 Posted : 26 October 2016 15:23:20(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Cranelane Go to Quoted Post


There is a slight dip in quality in New Orders lyrics from Get Ready onwards, whether that is because the other band members were no longer contributing or not is anyone's guess, I never had an issue with Bernard's lyrics until then tbh but some of the lines on Get Ready in particular do jar, especially Slow Jam which for me is a career low point. Bernard had more than proved himself as a decent lyricist before then of course.


I agree with you - Slow Jam along with Rock the Shit are career low points for me - however, I don't think it's due to lyrics not being shared. In interviews Sumner has always talked as if wrote all lyrics anyway. There's a famous quote about him saying he wrote the lyrics on PC&L, sub-consciously, and they turned out more meaningful than Movement.

Lyrically speaking, Technique and Republic are most adept. I don't know why that is, but note they weren't far apart in years. Electronic in between, which is also pretty solid. Some people have said that's also when Sumner's vocals were at his strongest...

Edited by user 26 October 2016 15:24:47(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Michael Monkhouse  
#214 Posted : 26 October 2016 23:33:38(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Cranelane Go to Quoted Post
Bernard had more than proved himself as a decent lyricist before then of course.



HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE ON PERFECTION?

'You reached out in your sleep, and you felt my big fat cock.'

'To buy a drink that is so much more reasonable
I think I'll go there when it gets seasonable.'

'Every second counts
When I am with you
I think you are a pig
You should be in a zoo.'

'You've caught me at a bad time
So why don't you piss off.'

'And the sound in my head goes round and round
Like a drunk on the stairs who just fell down.'

You're right though - GR saw some shite lyrics. You forgot Player in the League from the period - it was gonna be on the LP as 'Field' but rightly relegated to B.side ''''''''''''''''''''status'''''''''''''''''''.
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ROCKET MICK on 27/10/2016(UTC)
Cranelane  
#215 Posted : 27 October 2016 04:48:25(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Michael Monkhouse Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Cranelane Go to Quoted Post
Bernard had more than proved himself as a decent lyricist before then of course.



HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE ON PERFECTION?

'You reached out in your sleep, and you felt my big fat cock.'

'To buy a drink that is so much more reasonable
I think I'll go there when it gets seasonable.'

'Every second counts
When I am with you
I think you are a pig
You should be in a zoo.'

'You've caught me at a bad time
So why don't you piss off.'

'And the sound in my head goes round and round
Like a drunk on the stairs who just fell down.'

You're right though - GR saw some shite lyrics. You forgot Player in the League from the period - it was gonna be on the LP as 'Field' but rightly relegated to B.sid
e ''''''''''''''''''''status'''''''''''''''''''.


Don't forget the track where he references The Corrs, Behind Closed Doors was the one I think..

Edited by user 27 October 2016 04:49:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 27/10/2016(UTC)
Andy  
#216 Posted : 27 October 2016 09:00:00(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Cranelane Go to Quoted Post
Peter Hook says Caroline Aherne was physically abusive during marriage

Musician claims in autobiography that the comedian, who died in July, attacked him with knives, bottles and chairs before split.

Link


Haven't bought the book but have found a new appreciation for the lyrics of Under the Stars.
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markreed  
#217 Posted : 27 October 2016 11:00:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: komakino Go to Quoted Post
I think the reason the legal case is such a mess is the definition of whether the band had split or not.

I wouldn't say that Substance makes that actually 100% clear in the sense there was one meeting where it ended. Peter Hook clearly thinks the band had split, in which case he is entitled to x amount. However, the band clearly think that they had not. Reading in between the lines, they, Neworder made a dog's dinner of it. You cannot mess around with company law - it is black and white. Do any of them really know?

Neworder never officially split in 1993 either, they just stopped working together, so if I had to guess the band had not 'technically split' but I think the outcome will be that Hook will certainly get a lot more out of it than he is currently getting, without getting his potential full entitlement because of the ambiguity of the so called split.

One thing is certain, the lawyers are having a field day a they thrive on situations like this. Whatever you think of Neworder business wise, they are little better than Factory.



New Order always made it *ABSOLUTELY* clear that they had not formally split.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/...ntertainment/6909106.stm

They continued to say the band hadn't split. And, whilst they never said "Gillians got cancer, so we're calling ourselves Bad Lieutenant for a bit", that's what happened.

What happened was Hook left. He thought the original 1981 agreement that 'if one of us leaves, we split' still applied, even though in 2000 one of them left and they didn't split. Hook thought he split the group, where really he'd just split from the group.

if I reformed an old company, there's no way in hell I'd ask the guy who left my business, slagged me off in public, and was suing me if he'd like to work with me again.

Anyway, he should get fuck all from the band's activities in their current incarnation, except for maybe a pittance for participating in the band to 2007 and thus allowing them to a certain degree of viable recognition when they reformed - maybe 5% of the bands overall profit, even though he's not contributing one second of work to the band in nine years and actively trying to undermine their commercial viability.

I doubt Hook pays the rest of New Order 3.75% of his earnings for the brand recognition New Order and Joy Division have given his solo career - the one where he's played 400 gigs and not released one original song with The Light in their entire fucking lifetime despite selling T-shirts that are borderline legal in how much they resemble New Order's intellectual property.

And I say this as a fan of his music - and Hook's live shows are very very good - but really, he's letting his fury at a percieved injustice blind him to the stakes. He could end up having to pay all of New Order's legal fees if he loses. This really is a high stakes Death Or Glory case.

Of course, if New Order have not honoured any legal agreement made regarding the 1980-2007 money, they need to cough up.

I eagerly await his next missive about keyboard warriors in the 1,000 page book about the making of One True Passion where he seems to sleep with every female on the planet bar Gillian and sets fire to his money.
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markreed  
#218 Posted : 27 October 2016 11:04:59(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Cranelane Go to Quoted Post
Peter Hook says Caroline Aherne was physically abusive during marriage

Musician claims in autobiography that the comedian, who died in July, attacked him with knives, bottles and chairs before split.

Link


Haven't bought the book but have found a new appreciation for the lyrics of Under the Stars.


Under The Stars was played by Revenge in January 1993 and written before he'd met Aherne.
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Andy  
#219 Posted : 27 October 2016 19:50:59(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Andy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Cranelane Go to Quoted Post
Peter Hook says Caroline Aherne was physically abusive during marriage

Musician claims in autobiography that the comedian, who died in July, attacked him with knives, bottles and chairs before split.

Link


Haven't bought the book but have found a new appreciation for the lyrics of Under the Stars.


Under The Stars was played by Revenge in January 1993 and written before he'd met Aherne.


Which gig? Was it under a different title (with different lyrics) at the time? It ended up being a far better track than anything else Revenge produced.

I was under the impression it was written for The Mrs Merton Show

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ROCKET MICK on 27/10/2016(UTC)
synthpopfan  
#220 Posted : 28 October 2016 00:13:21(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post

Under The Stars was played by Revenge in January 1993 and written before he'd met Aherne.


Under the stars was called "Born to kill" and performed live as Revenge in January 1992. Possibly earlier at the end of 1991. I had a boot of it and I "remembered" it only upon hearing it released as a Monaco track.

Live, the song was fully formed as wound up nearly indentical to what is on MFP.

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Andy on 28/10/2016(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 28/10/2016(UTC)
NotAMod  
#221 Posted : 28 October 2016 03:30:05(UTC)
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'Tender' was also a Revenge track originally... played at some of their final gigs I believe. It's a highlight of Hook's solo output and perhaps one of his best (studio) vocal performances.

By the end as Revenge were morphing into Monaco, he'd clearly found a solid song-writing partner in David Potts.

Even 'State of Shock' on the GWP EP still stands up as a solid track decades later.
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Andy on 28/10/2016(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 28/10/2016(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#222 Posted : 28 October 2016 04:23:21(UTC)
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GWP was their best (arguably only decent) release, but they were pretty much Monaco by then. The official post-Repubelick line was Hooky was half-way into the next Revenge album but temporarily shelving it for Killing Joke. Neither project really took off, but Revenge included Pumpkin (later Monaco's Microbes), Under The Stars (Porn To Kill) and Tender, and Hooky and Coleman ''''''''''worked'''''''''' on Freispiel. Ain't I smart?
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ROCKET MICK on 28/10/2016(UTC)
Deceiver  
#223 Posted : 28 October 2016 06:42:37(UTC)
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For some reason I prefer Revenge to Monaco, even though I accept Monaco produced better material. Maybe I just prefer the sleeves...
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ROCKET MICK on 28/10/2016(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#224 Posted : 28 October 2016 06:54:48(UTC)
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In 1990, I only had two interests: New Order and jerking off. Revenge was two birds / one stone.
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ROCKET MICK on 28/10/2016(UTC)
tarbox23  
#225 Posted : 28 October 2016 16:13:36(UTC)
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Read his book and you will know who "Under the Stars" was written about.

I am loving the book, nearly finished with it, at about 1995 right now.

Been a fan since 1985, and am loving his angle on New Order; it is completely Hook. It is why I always loved this band, a result of all the differing angles and personalities that somehow coalesced into some of the most fantastic music.

This text is just like his basslines. Human, jarring, aggressive, and always as honest as one can be.

Sure, he might call Sumner a twat in one sentence, and then praise him the next. That is how people are. Nobody is one dimensional. They love each other, they hate each other.

It created some fantastic music.

I highly recommend the book. It is good to read about all the behind-the-scenes madness, and I am glad Hook revealed so much, compared to the relatively tame mission statement style book that Sumner put out...
Boston MA 86 | Great Woods MA 87-89-93 | Lake Compounce CT 89 | Meadowlands NJ 89 | NYC 05 + 12
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ROCKET MICK on 29/10/2016(UTC)
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