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50poundnote  
#226 Posted : 10 August 2020 06:53:11(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post
It blew my mind a second time when I realised years later via the guy who blogged all the singles, that quite a lot of the Substance tracks were edits or alternate versions


That was me. :)

It took 4 of us a couple of months to figure all of that out, cross-referencing our copies and sourcing from other people. Discogs wasn't very helpful at the time, since Factory's own records were haphazard. Nor was Wikipedia. It was a labor of love.

Edited by user 10 August 2020 06:54:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Mr Discography  
#227 Posted : 10 August 2020 07:47:33(UTC)
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I bought the double tape of 'Substance' in the summer of 1988 in the Cowes Woolworths whilst on holiday in the Isle of Wight. I'd have been 13 at the time. I knew 'True Faith' and had bought the 'Touched By The Hand Of God' 7". 'Blue Monday 1988' was in the charts. Other than that every track on 'Substance' was new to me.

As others have said, it changed my life and got me exploring indie, punk, dance and so on from then on. I'd never heard anything like 'Shellshock' and was hooked to that straight away. Still think it's underrated and am always drawn to songs that sound unlike any other - of which 'Shellshock' is definitely one.

'Theives Like Us' will forever remind me of being in Dad's car with Mum and my brother, playing the tape on headphones as we drove over Isle of Wight hills on the way back from Cowes to Whitecliff Bay holiday camp.

Was bewildered and fascinated at the same time by all those crazy dub versions. The album has accompanied me through my life and often gets played when I'm on holiday, in keeping with when I first heard it.

There's definitely something about this mere "compilation" that transcends it way above standard greatest hits and, to me, it is an album in its own right. 12 perfect tracks (13 on tape 1) in a perfect order as an album, yet showing the band's development, progression and innovation in 6 short years.

Edited by user 03 September 2020 03:47:59(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Fotz  
#228 Posted : 11 August 2020 10:38:48(UTC)
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I think i actually remember seeing NO do Blue Monday when it was first shown on TOTP and was the first time i'd ever heard of them but i thought it sounded awful.I first started reaally hearing Blue Monday though when it was played a lot on Radio 1 in Spring 1983, or at least the vocal section 4 minutes in the middle.Think it only used to get played in full by Tommy Vance when he did the Top 40 chart rundown on Sunday teatime around that time, he even played The Beach once , by mistake i'm sure and was probably because he had one of the mislabelled copies.Blue Monday first truly blew my mind when i heard it at a youth disco we would sometimes go to on Sunday nights.I eventually bought the 12" when it re-entered that UK Top 40 in autumn 83 and that was the start of it all for me i guess.

I'd heard Confusion 7" a lot on Radio 1 in late summer 1983 and quite liked it but that was as far as it went, i did though buy the 12" at some point later on.I think i much preferred the Kilkenny live version at that time though.

My first encounters with Ceremony, Everything's Gone Green and Temptation were actually the live versions from Kilkenny when the show was broadcast on Radio 1 in December 83.Ceremony live was fast , slightly chaotic but inspiring nonetheless on the Kilkenny broadcast which i'd recorded to cassette and played over and over again.EGG at Kilkenny sounded menacing and extraordinary and i was actually maybe a little disappointed at first when i heard the recorded version for the first time when i bought the Factus 8 1982 EP, i think i found the live version much more to my liking.My first encounter with Temptation, on the Kilkenny tape, was really positive.I found it an utter juggernaut of a song.Incredible.The version on Factus 8 though i found very very different to the live version i'd become familiar with but still great in a different way.When i first bought and heard Ceremony (the green sleeve version) i found it slightly slower than the Kilkenny live version i'd become familiar with but really took to it with it within a few plays.It was more restrained compared to the Kilkenny live version but the chiming guitars, thumping rhythm by Steve and great lyrics and vocal from Barney convinced me it was a class song.The record player i had at that time was an old gramophone late 1940s thing that had been in the family forever.Somehow Ceremony and Bernard's vocal style with the record playing on the old 1940s record player was kind of neat, like an old austere vibe.The sound on that old record player was actually pretty good.It broked down eventually but we still have it an attic.

Always associate Thieves Like with hearing it for the first time on Anne Nightingale's Radio 1 show on a Sunday night a week or two before it was released.That long intro was beautiful.The sleeve was a sight to behold when i eventually got my hands on it.

With The Perfect Kiss i think i'd heard the 7" just once maybe on Radio 1 before i bought the 12" when it was released the same day as Low-Life.At first I didn't know quite what to make of the sounds they used right at the start of it and only really got into it once Hooky's bass and then the drum machine kicked in.I think i remember asking a DJ in a pub one time around when TPK was first released if he had it and could he play it and he miserably responded with something like " oh, i've heard that new one of theirs - they've gone off, it's not a patch on Blue Monday, it's shit and no i don't have it" Could have lamped him!

Singles like Sub Culture, Shellshock, State Of The Nation, BLT (Pettibone Remix) and True Faith i first heard them when they were released or on the Radio just before .Oh, i first heard Sub Culture 12" on John Peel when he premiered it on his show on what i think was Steve Morris' birthday in Oct 85 as i recall Peel wishing Steve a happy birthday.Was a bit disappointed on first listen to Shellshock but it was the 7" , again on Radio 1.The 12" is much better but it's still not one of my fave NO tracks, sorry! First heard State Of The Nation on John Peel and thought it was really good.Didn't hear BLT (Pettibone) til i bought the 12" upon release.A workmate had it heard it on the radio before me and told me it had a brilliant chunky thumping beat and when i first heard it i thiought yes, it bloody has! Amazing beat..Think i heard True Faith 7" for the first time on Radio 1 (again!) and immediately thought, wow Barney has really nailed it with this one - what a very, very catch tune.Played True Faith and 1963 to death when i bought the 7" and 12", New Order really were on top of their game with that single.


Oh i forgot about Murder.Heard this mad song on Kid Jensen's evening Radio 1 show and afterwards he said that's the new single by New Order.What?? No way! Then i remembered that someone had written into NME a few months before, asking about a missing song called Murder from the Power, Corruption & Lies sessions and was it true it had samples of HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey. It took a couple of listens when i bought the 12" ( the "nightime" version of the Thieves sleeve was fantastic by Saville) but i kind of liked it pretty quickly.It was certainly different.

Songs like Mesh and Procession i first heard when i bought the Factus 8 EP in early 1984.Mesh was good and i absolutely loved Procession right from the off with that synth intro and Bernard's lyrics about "nobody even tries to find out, what they once knew" and "your heart beats you/ late at night".I didn't hear Cries And Whispers til sometime later when i eventually bought the EGG 12".


God i've rambled and if you're still here, well done!
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
GotBlueEyes  
#229 Posted : 12 August 2020 03:34:48(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post
It blew my mind a second time when I realised years later via the guy who blogged all the singles, that quite a lot of the Substance tracks were edits or alternate versions


That was me. :)

It took 4 of us a couple of months to figure all of that out, cross-referencing our copies and sourcing from other people. Discogs wasn't very helpful at the time, since Factory's own records were haphazard. Nor was Wikipedia. It was a labor of love.




I can't thank you enough - a fantastic effort
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GotBlueEyes  
#230 Posted : 12 August 2020 06:20:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post


I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?




I didn't know this either, so just had a listen and yes the version on the Collectors Edition 2xCD is different to the 12"/Substance version

On the Collectors Edition version, the snares are much crispier/more prominent (you can really hear this on the intro) and the ending is just the song fading out quickly, whereas the 12" version has that proper slowing-down drum break ending

While I was at it I checked out he other differences mentioned
Quote:

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

Quote:

'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' was again an alternate take which (I'm told) appeared on the US 'Shellshock' 12" b-side (possibly also in error back then)


Not sure if it's a different take, but definitely a different edit - there is about 20 seconds cut from the middle section on the Collectors edition version








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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#231 Posted : 12 August 2020 09:12:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post


I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?




I didn't know this either, so just had a listen and yes the version on the Collectors Edition 2xCD is different to the 12"/Substance version

On the Collectors Edition version, the snares are much crispier/more prominent (you can really hear this on the intro) and the ending is just the song fading out quickly, whereas the 12" version has that proper slowing-down drum break ending

While I was at it I checked out he other differences mentioned
Quote:

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

Quote:

'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' was again an alternate take which (I'm told) appeared on the US 'Shellshock' 12" b-side (possibly also in error back then)


Not sure if it's a different take, but definitely a different edit - there is about 20 seconds cut from the middle section on the Collectors edition version










Good bit of research here. Many thanks.

Can't believe I've never noticed that 'count in' intro to 'Murder'. The only explanation I have is that I'm guessing that I never played the second disc of the Collectors CD. I didn't buy any of the Collectors versions at the time of release (mercifully, considering the numerous mistakes on initial copies). I only bought them a couple of years later and, by that point, I had the 'Recycle' project's versions. I therefore probably had no need to ever stick the second CDs into my player.
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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
50poundnote  
#232 Posted : 12 August 2020 10:17:33(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post

Quote:

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)


Both the 12" and the second CD of Substance cut off the first drum beat of Murder. I like the restored version on PC&L with the little tape squelch and count-in.

Early copies of the Blue Monday 12" are missing the first two beats. That's the variation we included in Recycle.

Edited by user 12 August 2020 10:18:33(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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perspexorange  
#233 Posted : 12 August 2020 10:56:11(UTC)
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The 'Recycle' version of 'Blue Monday' is the one I listen to most (same for all the other singles / b-sides).

It still sounds weird though and I don't think I'll ever get used to it! :-)
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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#234 Posted : 12 August 2020 12:48:41(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
The 'Recycle' version of 'Blue Monday' is the one I listen to most (same for all the other singles / b-sides).

It still sounds weird though and I don't think I'll ever get used to it! :-)

Does that mean it misses the first two quarter note beats (the ones on the beat) and starts with the 16th note "machine gun" 8 bass drum hits in rapid succession?

The one that is metronmically correct (i.e. the one that starts one beat 1 of the correct first bar) is the version on 'Substance'.

Edited by user 12 August 2020 22:10:07(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
50poundnote  
#235 Posted : 12 August 2020 16:20:25(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Does that mean it misses the first two quarter note beats (the ones on the beat) and starts with the 16th note "machine gun" 8 bass drum kits in rapid succession?


Yes. It was fixed on later pressings of Blue Monday and on Substance.
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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
Johnny James  
#236 Posted : 13 August 2020 03:45:49(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post


I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?


I didn't know this either, so just had a listen and yes the version on the Collectors Edition 2xCD is different to the 12"/Substance version

On the Collectors Edition version, the snares are much crispier/more prominent (you can really hear this on the intro) and the ending is just the song fading out quickly, whereas the 12" version has that proper slowing-down drum break ending

While I was at it I checked out he other differences mentioned
Quote:

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

Quote:

'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' was again an alternate take which (I'm told) appeared on the US 'Shellshock' 12" b-side (possibly also in error back then)


Not sure if it's a different take, but definitely a different edit - there is about 20 seconds cut from the middle section on the Collectors edition version


The Beach was missing some edit sections that should have been inserted, that includes the outro bit.

Murder has a longer drum intro at the beginning that should have been trimmed.

Thieves Instrumental (on the 12" and Substance) should be a combination edit of two instrumentals on the masters, the extended drum roll in the middle gives away the edit. The US Shellshock featured one of the instrumentals unedited (probably by accident). I think the Collector's Edition (revised version) featured the other instrumental, also unedited.

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Mr Discography  
#237 Posted : 13 August 2020 04:57:12(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Johnny James Go to Quoted Post

Thieves Instrumental (on the 12" and Substance) should be a combination edit of two instrumentals on the masters, the extended drum roll in the middle gives away the edit. The US Shellshock featured one of the instrumentals unedited (probably by accident). I think the Collector's Edition (revised version) featured the other instrumental, also unedited.

Interesting, so the US 'Shellshock' version of 'Theives Like Us Instrumental' is still exclusive to that 12" release and not available on CD?

May have to track down a copy...
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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#238 Posted : 13 August 2020 04:59:48(UTC)
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Thanks JJ. very informative.

So, just to get this straight in my head, in respect of 'Thieves Like Us' (Instrumental), there are the following variants:

12" version (6:58) (combination of two masters; used on 'Thieves Like Us' 12" and 'Substance' LP)
12" version variant 1 (6:38) (master A; used on 'Shellshock' US 12")
12" version variant 2 (6:39) (master A; used on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collectors' Edition)
7" edit (3:55) (edit of master A; used on 'Shellshock' 7")

Does this seem correct? Is there any easy was to differentiate between the two masters?

Johnny - presumably the versions of 'The Beach', 'Murder' and 'Thieves Like Us (Instrumental)' on the forthcoming 12"s are the correct ones (i.e. the ones used on the original 12"s and 'Substance')?
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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
Johnny James  
#239 Posted : 13 August 2020 05:24:41(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Thanks JJ. very informative.

So, just to get this straight in my head, in respect of 'Thieves Like Us' (Instrumental), there are the following variants:

12" version (6:58) (combination of two masters; used on 'Thieves Like Us' 12" and 'Substance' LP)
12" version variant 1 (6:38) (master A; used on 'Shellshock' US 12")
12" version variant 2 (6:39) (master A; used on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collectors' Edition)
7" edit (3:55) (edit of master A; used on 'Shellshock' 7")

Does this seem correct? Is there any easy was to differentiate between the two masters?

Johnny - presumably the versions of 'The Beach', 'Murder' and 'Thieves Like Us (Instrumental)' on the forthcoming 12"s are the correct ones (i.e. the ones used on the original 12"s and 'Substance')?


Something like that, except I'm not sure which variant might have been used where. I'd have to examine the two and figure it out again.

Hopefully we've got it all correct on the new stuff, unless we've missed some minor thing.

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Johnny James  
#240 Posted : 13 August 2020 05:56:23(UTC)
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Right, I think it's Take 2 on the US Shellshock, then on the Collector's Edition (fixed version) they used Take 1.

The UK/Benelux original should be a combined edit of the two.
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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#241 Posted : 13 August 2020 08:01:58(UTC)
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Great! Thanks Johnny.

I've just taken a quick listen to both and you can definitely tell the difference between the two 6:38 versions. Listen to them both at the 4:40 point.
There's some echo-y extra keyboard bits on the Collector's Edition (Take 1).
There may be other bits, but I got lucky by happening to check that part first.

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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
negative1  
#242 Posted : 13 August 2020 09:03:06(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Great! Thanks Johnny.

I've just taken a quick listen to both and you can definitely tell the difference between the two 6:38 versions. Listen to them both at the 4:40 point.
There's some echo-y extra keyboard bits on the Collector's Edition (Take 1).
There may be other bits, but I got lucky by happening to check that part first.




had a long discussion about these mixes two years ago with most of you guys here:
http://forums.neworderon...ts&m=28879#post28879

http://forums.neworderon...ts&m=28880#post28880

http://forums.neworderon...ts&m=28884#post28884

http://forums.neworderon...ts&m=28887#post28887



basically echoing information repeated above.

later
-1

Edited by user 13 August 2020 09:10:53(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#243 Posted : 13 August 2020 09:26:04(UTC)
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True.

However, I don't think anyone had mentioned the two versions of the 6:38 instrumental before though, had they?
If they did, I missed it.


Incredible to think that, despite my best efforts a few years back to track down pretty much every mix, there are still 'new' versions that are lurking on various compilations / non-UK releases.

Edited by user 13 August 2020 09:26:38(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#244 Posted : 13 August 2020 10:09:41(UTC)
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Anyone able to point me in the direct (or a cat. No.) Of the exact US 12" that has this version of 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' on it? Looked on Discogs and it lists two, both with 'Thieves Like Us' - no indication of it being an instrumental, unless it's mislabeled on the release.
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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#245 Posted : 13 August 2020 11:34:52(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Anyone able to point me in the direct (or a cat. No.) Of the exact US 12" that has this version of 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' on it? Looked on Discogs and it lists two, both with 'Thieves Like Us' - no indication of it being an instrumental, unless it's mislabeled on the release.


I noticed this on Discogs earlier too - that with all the Shellshock 12"s with 'Thieves Like Us' on them, there's no indicator that they are the 'instrumental' version. Very confusing!

According to the Recycle Project, they sourced the instrumental version on the Shellshock 12" as follows:

"sourced from A&M Canada 45RPM 12" single SP-12174".

50poundnote should be able to clarify for you, as he was involved, I believe.
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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
50poundnote  
#246 Posted : 13 August 2020 11:59:36(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Anyone able to point me in the direct (or a cat. No.) Of the exact US 12" that has this version of 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' on it? Looked on Discogs and it lists two, both with 'Thieves Like Us' - no indication of it being an instrumental, unless it's mislabeled on the release.


Every US pressing should have the "instrumental '86" version.
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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#247 Posted : 13 August 2020 13:32:36(UTC)
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Johnny, I assume the production master of 'Thieves Like Us' (from original 12" and 'Substance') has been used for the reissued 12" and digital 12", rather than the studio master that has that erroneous vocal drop in at 5:29 that appeared on 'The Best Of' and PCL Collector's Edition?

Edited by user 13 August 2020 13:34:06(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
M1  
#248 Posted : 13 August 2020 14:02:46(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post
It blew my mind a second time when I realised years later via the guy who blogged all the singles, that quite a lot of the Substance tracks were edits or alternate versions


That was me. :)

It took 4 of us a couple of months to figure all of that out, cross-referencing our copies and sourcing from other people. Discogs wasn't very helpful at the time, since Factory's own records were haphazard. Nor was Wikipedia. It was a labor of love.




I can't thank you enough - a fantastic effort


Seconded...actually am listening to it right now on my iTunes. Lovingly made a beautiful CD collection of these at the time - always on the lookout for a nice little perspex box to house them ;)
Thanks so much!

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50poundnote on 13/08/2020(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
Johnny James  
#249 Posted : 13 August 2020 23:15:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Johnny, I assume the production master of 'Thieves Like Us' (from original 12" and 'Substance') has been used for the reissued 12" and digital 12", rather than the studio master that has that erroneous vocal drop in at 5:29 that appeared on 'The Best Of' and PCL Collector's Edition?


We've definitely sorted that out.

thanks 3 users thanked Johnny James for this useful post.
Mr Discography on 14/08/2020(UTC), Andy on 15/08/2020(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#250 Posted : 14 August 2020 07:00:54(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Johnny James Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

The Beach was missing some edit sections that should have been inserted, that includes the outro bit.

Are these sections that were edited into the original 12" version of 'The Beach' included in the 'Instrumental Outtake' version on the Definitive Edition, or was there another version of 'The Beach' mixed down (a bit like how the released 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' is a combined edit of two different mixdowns)?
Originally Posted by: Johnny James Go to Quoted Post

Murder has a longer drum intro at the beginning that should have been trimmed.

Having heard this longer drum intro on the Collector's Edition CD2, it made me wonder why they clipped the start on the original 12" version, as the unedited version has drums that start on the beat - whereas the 12" starts on an offbeat and always felt like it kind of 'tripped over' into the beat a little when it started. Wonder why they removed those first few seconds originally?

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ROCKET MICK on 19/08/2020(UTC)
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