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Mapping the (hopefully!) forthcoming Definitive Editions... Part 1 - PC&L
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Fotz  
#176 Posted : 06 August 2020 11:46:24(UTC)
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Though we get Your Silent Face and 586 twice from The Hacienda 1983 on the DVDs.I have to assume the 2 performances are from different 83 Hacienda gigs.YSF and 586 from i think January 83 on at The Hacienda on one DVD and then the same 2 songs again in the full gig July 83 on the DVD that also has the Play At Home doc.
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#177 Posted : 06 August 2020 11:53:14(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
on the DVD that also has the Play At Home doc.



Love that film. Was watching it for the umpteenth time 2-3 weeks ago.
When these box sets were originally being mooted, I always hoped that 'Play At Home' would be included. It's such a great part of the New Order Story and perfectly shows the important link between them and Factory.


Still can't quite believe that we get to see Tony's cock though. I could've done without that.
And to think that Gillian was mere inches away from it. Big Grin
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Fotz  
#178 Posted : 06 August 2020 11:55:05(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Wonderful to see the positive effect this release announcement has had on this forum. It's been so sleepy here recently, apart from those sporadic random and pointless Spice Girls posts. I've found out more useful and interesting stuff in a day than I have in the last year, I reckon. It's rejuvenated us! Great stuff!


Yep.
I think it also helps that this is such a magnificent LP and that we've been waiting for this one for a lonnnng time. 'Movement' is great, but 'PC&L' is always going to be the LP that generates the most interest.

Although 'Technique' is marginally my favourite LP over this one, if I had to say which was the band's masterpiece, it would always be 'Power, Corruption & Lies'.



Yep, i think the PCL box is the most urgent to me out of the lot.Even beats Technique even though weirdly i think Technique is a better album.Go figure.Maybe it's more there's for me more personal memories for me of getting in to NO around the time of PCL.Basically it was the album that changed my life upon hearing Age Of Consent for the very first time.Technique is incredible in the way it was maybe the pinnacle of what New Order had been developing towards throughout the 80s but PCL was the album that was the massive game changer for me.
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#179 Posted : 06 August 2020 11:59:57(UTC)
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Oh, and I think Johnny confirmed back when the contents were leaked that 'Your Silent Face' and '5-8-6' were from the other Haçienda gig. So, no duplication.
Apart from, I guess, the Haçienda footage included in 'Play At Home' ('Temptation', 'Lonesome Tonight' and 'Thieves Like Us' from July '83).
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Johnny James  
#180 Posted : 06 August 2020 12:02:16(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
I think that 'Confusion' is an under-appreciated classic.
A brilliant example of early 80s dance.

Also, I always loved it live. Bernard playing slap bass, Hooky on guitar, then bass, Steve hitting all those samples. Fab stuff.

Talking of Hooky on guitar, anyone know what guitar he's playing on this song during PFD (there's a good shot of it at the start):


Yamaha SG3000 I think
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Fotz  
#181 Posted : 06 August 2020 12:07:34(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
on the DVD that also has the Play At Home doc.



Love that film. Was watching it for the umpteenth time 2-3 weeks ago.
When these box sets were originally being mooted, I always hoped that 'Play At Home' would be included. It's such a great part of the New Order Story and perfectly shows the important link between them and Factory.


Still can't quite believe that we get to see Tony's cock though. I could've done without that.
And to think that Gillian was mere inches away from it. Big Grin


Ugh, yeah that's the only thing i dislike about Play At Home, Wilson n.. god i don;t even want to type it.I remember setting the video to record the doc the night it was aired as i , crazily, went out to play football in the park with mates instead and knew i'd get home late and my mum would be watching something else when i got home.Had to wait til the following afternoon til i got home from work to finally watch the recording.It really was a massive thing back then in 1984 when it made a massive impression to me at such a young age and still learning and finding out about New Order and Factory.Finding info or anything about New Order back then was so rare, they were like from another planet in those times.The images of the moors and roads around Manchester to the soundtrack of the intro to Thieves Like Us live intoxicated my young mind.Wow.Memories of youth.I still recommend anyone trying to work out Factory to watch Play At Home instead of the Twenty Four Hour Party People movie.
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#182 Posted : 06 August 2020 12:07:44(UTC)
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Thanks for that JJ.
I didn't know that guitar, so had to Google it. It certainly looks like one.
Also, knowing Hooky's love of Yamaha, it does seem likely he would use one.
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#183 Posted : 06 August 2020 12:25:54(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
I still recommend anyone trying to work out Factory to watch Play At Home instead of the Twenty Four Hour Party People movie.



Yep - it really is that good.

Just for a bit of fun, during one of my latest viewings, I had a go at trying to name everyone featured in the film.

This is what I came up with (with a bit of help from other fans):

Bernard Sumner (New Order)
Peter Hook (New Order)
Stephen Morris (New Order)
Gillian Gilbert (New Order)
Anthony H. Wilson (Factory Records)
Alan Erasmus (Factory Records)
Martin Hannett (Factory Records)
Peter Saville (Factory Records)
Rob Gretton (Factory Records)
Richard Boon (Buzzcocks' manager)
Bruce Mitchell (Durutti Column)
Larry Cassidy (Section 25)
Liz Naylor (City Fun fanzine)
Michael Shamberg (Factory Records (New York))
Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks)
Derek Johnson (52nd Street)
Donald Johnson (A Certain Ratio)
Andy Connell (A Certain Ratio / Kalima)
Martin Moscrop (A Certain Ratio / Kalima)
Jez Kerr (A Certain Ratio / Kalima)
Vin Cassidy (Section 25)
Hillegonda Rietveld (Quando Quango)
Cath Carroll (Miaow)
Mike Pickering (Quando Quango)
Howard "Ginger" Jones (Haçienda General Manager)
? (Claude Bessy possibly)

The only one I couldn't name is the guy dancing with Rob at the Haçienda. I've guessed at Claude Bessy. You can see him at 19:49 here:

Edited by user 06 August 2020 12:29:48(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Fotz  
#184 Posted : 06 August 2020 12:49:08(UTC)
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^ Haha yeah just that opening graphics and music takes me right back immediate to being 16 in 1984.Nope i never did work out who that is dancing with Rob.

Hooky talked a bit about Alan Erasmus in the recent streamed thing.Shame Mr Erasmus is seemingly reluctant to talk in front of camera these days.He always seemed to be a big part of Factory back in the day and a really nice fellow.
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#185 Posted : 06 August 2020 14:18:31(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Johnny James Go to Quoted Post

I think you have to use the 87 versions, as they're part and parcel of the original release. The originals were on Singles anyway (remastered). I'd say the Perfect Kiss edit adds nothing so use the full one. Also, I'd use the correct In A Lonely Place as again, that alternate (not quite finished mix) adds nothing. I'm definitely into using the cassette extra tracks over two CDs. Yes to the other edits, Hurt, Shellshock, Sub Culture.

If it was done as a box of some sort, adding more content could be tricky. We'll probably use the better material for DVDs on the Definitve albums. That Substance show does exist on audio cassette but is far from perfect (tape flips missing a bit), no video of it. So, I dunno if there much we could add.

A further question to consider... The original disc 2 and tape 2 has track 3 listed as 'Cries and Whispers' and track 4 as 'Mesh' - this is the order the two tracks appeared on the 'Everything's Gone Green' original 12" release. Unfortunately, the actual recordings were the wrong way round and mislabelled on 'Substance', making 3 'Mesh' and 4 'Cries And Whispers'.

So... Should a reissue preserve the actual, erroneous order that's on the physical recording - which is how we experience the progression and track flow of the 'Substance' B-sides and are familiar with it. Or... Be faithful to the actual tracks as they were listed and appeared on 'Everything's Gone Green'and swap the audio into the (presumably) intended order when 'Substance' was conceived...?

Opinions?

Edited by user 06 August 2020 22:52:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#186 Posted : 06 August 2020 14:28:36(UTC)
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To whoever is the webmaster of this forum these days, I keep getting a pink banner pop up telling me "Your message was reject as it was detected as SPAM!" whenever I try to edit a post shortly after making it. Can the webmaster do something to prevent this please?

Anyone else getting this today?
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#187 Posted : 06 August 2020 14:41:33(UTC)
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Not today, but have had it in the past.

I think it might be related to non-English words.

If you use these, and then edit the post, it’ll sometimes reject it.

An example would be if you shortened Blue Monday to BM or The Perfect Kiss to TPK.
I’ve noticed that, if you remove or change these type of words, you can often get it past the spam filter.
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#188 Posted : 06 August 2020 14:44:41(UTC)
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Looking at your previous post, maybe try changing the wordf ‘CD2’ to ‘disc 2’.

That might be the offending word.
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#189 Posted : 06 August 2020 15:28:40(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Looking at your previous post, maybe try changing the wordf ‘CD2’ to ‘disc 2’.

That might be the offending word.

Maybe I'm sheltered, but I've no idea why CD2 would be offensive, and I'm not sure why it would get through in the original post. I changed it in my original post and it got through. Then, when I re-edited immediately afterwards (to correct my quote tags - why I wanted to edit it) I got the spam message again. I think this could be more to do with frequency of posts, and how quickly there's an attempt to edit a post after it's been put up. Darned annoying.

Anyway, sort of off-topic, but thanks for the suggestions. Besides, much more interesting things to talk about than this!

What would you do about the 'Mesh'/'Cries And Whispers' business anyway - preserve the order on the recording, or adjust the recording to match the Substance and EGG track listings?

Cheers

Edited by user 06 August 2020 15:37:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#190 Posted : 06 August 2020 15:36:58(UTC)
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Okay, I've cracked it - here's a proposed 3 x CD tracklist for 'Substance' 1987 (Definitive Edition)' that I think stays authentic to the original LP, CD and tape versions. It takes advantage of the free space having 2 x B-side CDs will provide by adding three "bonus tracks" that:

  • (a) were on the original 12" releases;
  • (b) preserve the original tape/CD running orders up to '1963'
  • (c) remain in the order they were released; and
  • (d) ensure no individual song appears more than once on either of the A and B side elements of the 3 main discs.

Also some suggestions for CD 4, but happy to be surprised with more exclusive stuff if it exists.

Johnny, treat this as a formal proposal to the band…

CD1
1. Ceremony (2nd version)
2. Everything's Gone Green
3. Temptation (1987 new version)
4. Blue Monday
5. Confusion (1987 new version)
6. Thieves Like Us
7. The Perfect Kiss (unedited full 12")
8. Subculture (Substance edit)
9. Shellshock (Substance edit)
10. State Of The Nation
11. Bizarre Love Triangle
12. True Faith
(74:56)

CD2
1. In A Lonely Place (proper final 12" version)
2. Procession
3. Mesh
4. Cries And Whispers
5. Hurt (Substance edit)
6. The Beach
7. Confused Instrumental
8. Lonesome Tonight
9. Murder
10. Thieves Like Us Instrumental
(55:07)
You may want to swap Mesh and Cries And Whispers round to match the EGG 12" order and (presumably) intended running order of Substance in the tracklist that had mixed up the titles

CD3
1. Kiss Of Death
2. Dubvulture
3. Shellcock
4. Shame Of The Nation
5. Bizarre Dub Triangle
6. 1963
7. Evil Dust [bonus track]
8. Paradise (Remix) [bonus track]
9. True Dub [bonus track]
(64:16)

As for CD4, I'd love to be pleasantly surprised, but here's a few suggestions to include or choose from:
1. Blue Monday (Unreleased 7" edit)
2. The Perfect Kiss (3:50 UK Edit)
3. In A Lonely Place (7")
4. Hurt (7")
5. The Beach (Unreleased 7" edit - if it exists)
6. Confusion Dub 1987 [although on later TBTHOG CD single, presumably recorded at the same time as the 'Substance' re-record, so appropriate to this era]
7. Lonesome Tonight (7")
8. Thieves Like Us (Instrumental Edit) [From 'Shellshock 7"]
9. The Kiss Of Death (5:10 Factory Benelux 7")
10. Dub-vulture (7")
11. Shame Of The Nation (7")
12. Bizarre Dub Triangle (7")
13. The Kiss Of Death (3:01 UK Edit)
14. Sub-culture (4:59 Remix Edit from Factory Benelux 7") [different to the 'Substance' Edit)
15. Bizarre Love Triangle (4:58 Extended Edit from Qwest promo 12” PRO-A-2636)
16. True Faith (Remix 7") [audio track from 'True Faith' CD Video]
(59:22 excluding 'Blue Monday' / 'The Beach')

Presumably, other dubs that appeared on the original 12 inches will be swept up by their respective digital releases (such as 'Confused Beats', 'Confusion (Rough Mix)', 'Perfect Pit'), so I've avoided them here to avoid repetition. I'd happily ditch of few of the above (BLT Extended Edit, 'Subculture (Remix Edit)', 'True Faith (Remix Edit)' and the UK 'Kiss Of Death' edit for example) in favour of more exclusive unreleased treats or outtakes/demos.

Maybe also re-release these 12 inches at the same time as 'Substance', which all came out to more or less accompany 'Substance', and weren't associated with 'Brotherhood' or 'Technique', which were distinctly different eras:

  • True Faith
  • True Faith Remix (with 'Paradise (Remix)' to mirror the Australian release - instead of repeating '1963' which is already on the first 'True Faith' 12"
  • Touched By The Hand Of God (which came out soon after 'Substance' and shared similar cover art to 'True Faith')
  • Blue Monday 1988


How's that for a proposal for the band to consider..?

Cheers!

Edited by user 07 August 2020 08:52:39(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#191 Posted : 06 August 2020 23:10:59(UTC)
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Glad that amending ‘CD2’ fixed it for you. I don’t think it’s because it thinks the word is offensive, just that it doesn’t recognise it as a word.
Why it only rejects these when being edited, rather than when they’re first posted, I’ve no idea.
Yeah - I’ve also noticed that ‘quick edits’ cause spam problems too.

As regards ‘Mesh’ and ‘Cries & Whispers’, I’d personally preserve the order as per the ‘Substance’ cassette and amend the artwork to reflect the correct titles. That seems the most logical approach, with the LP sounding the same as previously released but with titles corrected.

I like your track listing proposal, and it’s seems to cover all bases.

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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Jcp7  
#192 Posted : 07 August 2020 01:23:24(UTC)
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TBTHOG should be on CD1!
Pulp's WeLoveLife DeluxeEdition Petition
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
In A Noisy Place  
#193 Posted : 07 August 2020 02:02:59(UTC)
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Hi guys, I really enjoy reading what you're expecting for the Substance box, but I think it's time to create a proper topic to find the right infos in the right place Wink

Cheers
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Mr Discography  
#194 Posted : 07 August 2020 03:29:37(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jcp7 Go to Quoted Post
TBTHOG should be on CD1!

But it wasn't on 'Substance' in '87 and wasn't part of the concept when it was conceived.

Plus the 12" wouldn't fit on the CD.

Edited by user 07 August 2020 04:32:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#195 Posted : 07 August 2020 04:52:24(UTC)
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Well, the PC&L set is up on Amazon.co.uk:

https://www.amazon.co.uk...id=1596803436&sr=8-1

£107.99

So not much cheaper than the New Order store (£112.99).
As the 12"s aren't on there (and may never be), you'd need to get these from the NO Store (or elsewhere) at £9.99 a pop.

Therefore:

Amazon.co.uk (LP) & New Order Store (12"s) combined - £107.99, plus 4 x £9.99 = £147.95
New Order Store - £135.00

So, a saving of £12.95, or you can opt for the t-shirt combo costing £150, therefore getting the t-shirt effectively for £2.05 (£150-£147.95).

Of course, Amazon.co.uk are probably more reliable, especially based on my delay with the Closer bundle from NO.
However, on a set this size, they're probably going to use a courier rather than Royal Mail (think there's a minimum value for this. The couriers that delivered Closer were on time apparently.
So, maybe that makes my choice a little more clear.

Hmmm, thinking about it though, I think the NO Store charges immediately, whilst Amazon.co.uk only charges on dispatch.

Choices, choices, eh?
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#196 Posted : 07 August 2020 07:27:19(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Well, the PC&L set is up on Amazon.co.uk:

https://www.amazon.co.uk...id=1596803436&sr=8-1

£107.99

So not much cheaper than the New Order store (£112.99).
As the 12"s aren't on there (and may never be), you'd need to get these from the NO Store (or elsewhere) at £9.99 a pop.

Therefore:

Amazon.co.uk (LP) & New Order Store (12"s) combined - £107.99, plus 4 x £9.99 = £147.95
New Order Store - £135.00

So, a saving of £12.95, or you can opt for the t-shirt combo costing £150, therefore getting the t-shirt effectively for £2.05 (£150-£147.95).

Of course, Amazon.co.uk are probably more reliable, especially based on my delay with the Closer bundle from NO.
However, on a set this size, they're probably going to use a courier rather than Royal Mail (think there's a minimum value for this. The couriers that delivered Closer were on time apparently.
So, maybe that makes my choice a little more clear.

Hmmm, thinking about it though, I think the NO Store charges immediately, whilst Amazon.co.uk only charges on dispatch.

Choices, choices, eh?

Worth remembering Amazon's pre-order price guarantee though. Saved me over £20 with 'Movement' (and came on day of release at no cost as I'm Amazon Prime:
  • Movement (Definitive Edition) [VINYL]
  • Price on order date: £109.99
  • Price charged at shipping: £89.22
  • Lowest price before release date: £89.22
  • Quantity: 1
  • Total Savings: £20.77


I've ordered with New Order store and Amazon. Good chance I'll cancel the NO store the week before release as long as the Amazon in stock date doesn't slip.
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#197 Posted : 07 August 2020 07:40:14(UTC)
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Yep. I do usually go with Amazon for this very reason.
I ordered Movement through them, but couldn’t remember what price it was when I first ordered it (presumably the same as you as I ordered straight away and was charged £89).

Did the New Order Store charge you immediately?

Edited by user 07 August 2020 07:40:55(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#198 Posted : 07 August 2020 08:04:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Yep. I do usually go with Amazon for this very reason.
I ordered Movement through them, but couldn’t remember what price it was when I first ordered it (presumably the same as you as I ordered straight away and was charged £89).

Did the New Order Store charge you immediately?

It did for me using PayPal.
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#199 Posted : 07 August 2020 08:22:11(UTC)
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Ta.
This is a bit annoying, as I always worry that it might be a bit of a ball-ache getting my money back.


Oh, and this has just landed:
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#200 Posted : 07 August 2020 08:28:17(UTC)
perspexorange

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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Ta.
This is a bit annoying, as I always worry that it might be a bit of a ball-ache getting my money back.


Oh, and this has just landed:



Nice to see them all happy. Steve is, as always, a joy to listen to.

Bernard is having fun talking about his 'dalliances' with substances.


Man, I love these guys... :-)


Edited this to move my previous post onto the new page (the board is moving fast! Well, for us!)

Edited by user 07 August 2020 08:31:43(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK on 12/08/2020(UTC)
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