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Mapping The Definitive Editions - Brotherhood
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Rorschach  
#126 Posted : 13 September 2024 03:08:43(UTC)
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The opening lyrics are slightly different to the original 83 version & 88 remix and the same as Brain Mix - sounds like the same take was used.

Edited by user 13 September 2024 03:12:50(UTC)  | Reason: Yeay - not spam!!!
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perspexorange  
#127 Posted : 13 September 2024 03:54:04(UTC)
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!!!!!! Trainspotter Alert!!!!!!

Been scrubbing through the 95 remixes, just to check which ones used which vocals.

Hardfloor Remix/Radio Edit/Dub/Video Edit/Lakes Edit/DanceZone Level 6 Edit - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Andrea Mix - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Brain Mix (aka Corleone Mix) - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Starwash Mix - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Manuella Mix/Edit - 1988 re-recorded vocals (probably! Very few vocal samples and, whatever is there, has been put through effects)

Plutone Mix/Dub/Radio Edit - 1988 re-recorded vocals (I think!, based on what little vocal samples there are)

Hawtin Mix/'From Manchester With Love' Edit - No vocals



Phew!
So pretty much all of them. Perhaps remixers were only supplied with the '88 vocals.

As you were…
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Mr Discography  
#128 Posted : 13 September 2024 04:21:42(UTC)
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I'm pretty sure all the vocal versions of 'Blue Monday 1988' featured the original 1983 vocals - with the exception of this newly released Michael Johnson Mix.

The 1995 Brain Mix has the lyrics from the aborted "Sunkist is the one" advert right at the end. Is it therefore possible that when they worked on that advert, a completely new vocal take for all of 'Blue Monday' was recorded, and that's the vocal track that was shared with remixers for the 1995 release (possibly in error) - and also appeared on this new 1988 version?

Does anyone know when they were working on that Sunkist advert? It's mentioned in NewOrderStory, so it must vahe been before 1993 - and given this new mix, possibly before 1988.

Edited by user 13 September 2024 04:33:29(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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50poundnote  
#129 Posted : 13 September 2024 06:50:03(UTC)
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The Sunkist commercial is on YouTube. From the first syllable you can tell it's the same vocal as the Michael Johnson 12".

The Substance tour wrapped December 10, 1987, and apart from two dates in Italy in February '88, they're not on the road again until November. Blue Monday 1988 was released May 25th.

Substance was New Order's most successful album in the States (Billboard #36) up to that point, and like Depeche Mode, they were VERY popular in southern California. This is pure speculation on my part, but I'm thinking Quincy Jones realized they'd missed an opportunity to score a hit with the original Blue Monday, because it was released here via Rough Trade and not Qwest. He asked the band to let him remix or update it, similar to Temptation and Confusion on Substance, to be released as another single promoting Substance - or at least to keep some momentum going, since TBTHOG wasn't released here. The band headed to L.A. in March or April, to re-record vocals (for Quincy, and possibly for the Sunkist ad), and to film the video, because artist William Wegman was located in L.A. It charted at #68, and got a lot of exposure on MTV, so in that regard it was successful. It kept the band visible until Fine Time was released in November, and then Technique becomes their highest charting U.S. album until Republic.
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perspexorange  
#130 Posted : 13 September 2024 07:38:45(UTC)
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I've heard three stories about this time:

1) I remember reading a comment on a YouTube upload of that 'advert' from NewOrderStory. The guy commenting said he worked for an advertising company, loved the band, and came up with the idea for the commercial.
He tried to sell it to the band but, ultimately, they wouldn't do it. From all accounts, the video shown on NOS was just a 'mock up' and never intended for release (not sure if the advertising company did it or it was a later thing done by the producers of the documentary). After all, Hooky flips the bird in it, so not sanitary enough for a TV commercial, I wouldn't've thought.

2) The band re-recorded the vocals for the 1988 version, but Quincey/Potoker preferred the original vocals (too right!), so shelved the 1988 re-recorded vocals.

3) When the 95 remixes were commissioned, the vocals supplied to remixers included lines recorded for the Sunkist commercial. This was apparently an error and shouldn't've been included.




So, pure speculation on my part, but a possible timeline was:

a) Advertising company approached the band about the ad, who said they'd think about it.
b) (Possibly unrelated) Band decided to get Jones/Potoker/Johnson to remix Blue Monday.
c) Bernard recorded new vocals. As the advert was still a possibility at this point, they decided to record the vocals for that commercial at the same time.
d) Quincey at al decided not to use the new vocals.
e) Band (or Gretton, apparently) decided not to go through with the ad.
f) Tapes containing new vocals and Sunkist vocals lurk in the vaults until 1993.
g) Morley/Gretton etc. dig out the vocals to the ad for use in NewOrderStory and a 'mock up' video is created .
h) Again, vocals are mothballed until 1995 when new remixes are commissioned. These may or may not have contained the Sunkist vocals which were then used in the Brain Remix (alternatively, of course, the remixer might just have sampled NewOrderStory).



Perhaps JJ can shed some light here.

Edited by user 13 September 2024 10:51:54(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Mr Discography  
#131 Posted : 13 September 2024 11:14:54(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
I've heard three stories about this time:

1) I remember reading a comment on a YouTube upload of that 'advert' from NewOrderStory. The guy commenting said he worked for an advertising company, loved the band, and came up with the idea for the commercial.
He tried to sell it to the band but, ultimately, they wouldn't do it. From all accounts, the video shown on NOS was just a 'mock up' and never intended for release (not sure if the advertising company did it or it was a later thing done by the producers of the documentary). After all, Hooky flips the bird in it, so not sanitary enough for a TV commercial, I wouldn't've thought.

2) The band re-recorded the vocals for the 1988 version, but Quincey/Potoker preferred the original vocals (too right!), so shelved the 1988 re-recorded vocals.

3) When the 95 remixes were commissioned, the vocals supplied to remixers included lines recorded for the Sunkist commercial. This was apparently an error and shouldn't've been included.




So, pure speculation on my part, but a possible timeline was:

a) Advertising company approached the band about the ad, who said they'd think about it.
b) (Possibly unrelated) Band decided to get Jones/Potoker/Johnson to remix Blue Monday.
c) Bernard recorded new vocals. As the advert was still a possibility at this point, they decided to record the vocals for that commercial at the same time.
d) Quincey at al decided not to use the new vocals.
e) Band (or Gretton, apparently) decided not to go through with the ad.
f) Tapes containing new vocals and Sunkist vocals lurk in the vaults until 1993.
g) Morley/Gretton etc. dig out the vocals to the ad for use in NewOrderStory and a 'mock up' video is created .
h) Again, vocals are mothballed until 1995 when new remixes are commissioned. These may or may not have contained the Sunkist vocals which were then used in the Brain Remix (alternatively, of course, the remixer might just have sampled NewOrderStory).



Perhaps JJ can shed some light here.

I think you've probably nailed the timeline here. Only thing not possible, is sampling from NewOrderStory - the technology didn't exist back then to isolate vocals from the music.
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50poundnote  
#132 Posted : 13 September 2024 11:29:16(UTC)
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Agreed that what appears in NewOrderStory is just a "what if." Barney says he couldn't get through the singing because the lyrics were so corny, but at least one take with the Sunkist lyrics was completed because it shows up in the '95 remixes.
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Debaser  
#133 Posted : 13 September 2024 11:31:27(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post

1) I remember reading a comment on a YouTube upload of that 'advert' from NewOrderStory. The guy commenting said he worked for an advertising company, loved the band, and came up with the idea for the commercial.
He tried to sell it to the band but, ultimately, they wouldn't do it.



There was a YT comment from a guy who said he worked for the advertising agency. They tried to convince Sunkist to go ahead with the ad but ultumately Sunkist said no.
I know officially NO claim that Rob told them not to do it, but that may not be the whole truth.

Found it. From the YT comments under this video:

Quote:
Cary Raffle: I was the vp and manager of the Sunkist account at their ad agency when this demo was created I think twas 1988. I am still heart broken to this day that we could not get our client to use this music in their campaign. It wasn't about the money, they just had really conservative taste.



Where he says "client" he means Sunkist, not NO.

Edited by user 13 September 2024 11:37:12(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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perspexorange  
#134 Posted : 13 September 2024 11:45:36(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post

Where he says "client" he means Sunkist, not NO.



Ah. Yeah, that makes sense.
I think it's probably a good thing they didn't do it.

Thanks for finding the comment, D. Knew I wasn't imagining it.

Certainly seems then that the video was a mock up for NewOrderStory.
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EmileStrunz  
#135 Posted : 14 September 2024 00:04:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post

Where he says "client" he means Sunkist, not NO.



Ah. Yeah, that makes sense.
I think it's probably a good thing they didn't do it.

Thanks for finding the comment, D. Knew I wasn't imagining it.

Certainly seems then that the video was a mock up for NewOrderStory.


For a mock up, it sounds pretty good. I’m talking about the backing track here. It has a nice fat dubby sound, 100 times better than some of those woeful ‘95 remixes (excluding the Hardfloor Remix obvs). Had a quick listen of the Brain mix and was not impressed.
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Mr. Disco  
#136 Posted : 14 September 2024 06:59:48(UTC)
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This is the kind of information I'd expect to read on the books that come within the box sets. Track by track, preferably.
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M1  
#137 Posted : 14 September 2024 14:56:57(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Disco Go to Quoted Post
This is the kind of information I'd expect to read on the books that come within the box sets. Track by track, preferably.


Some great insight here...why I still love popping into NOOL :)
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negative1  
#138 Posted : 16 September 2024 05:15:00(UTC)
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anyone know the story about 'evil dust'?


i first got it on this compilation cassette :


https://www.discogs.com/...Exclusive-Techno-Remixes
UserPostedImage

which is actually an industrial music compilation..

then got it lp, and cd:
https://www.discogs.com/...ky-Alternatives-Volume-1

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

finally of course, it came as an extra track on the true faith CDV: https://www.discogs.com/...979-New-Order-True-Faith
UserPostedImage

it's been on 20 other compilation cds since then..

====

was it going to be a single?

it would have been great.

very dark, sinister lyrics.

excellent musical parts, breakdowns sounds.
- the piano solo is amazing
- followed by the cool drum and synth solos
- the alarm bell leading in the strings
- the fuzzy guitar solo at the end.

the evil dust version has a 'harmonica' sound solo in it? or is it a melodica..

all in under 4 minutes.

it really needed a good extended mix.. however evil dust is mostly instrumental..
made my own mix.. but really need to try again...


--
next up .. was 'way of life' going to be a single in the US?
there was a 12 inch promo... the album cut.

another one of my favorite songs from them.

later
| || | |
ne gative 1

Edited by user 16 September 2024 05:16:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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perspexorange  
#139 Posted : 16 September 2024 06:18:50(UTC)
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I'm not sure on whether Angel/Evil Dust was ever considered for a single. It's good enough, I reckon (probably better than State Of The Nation; in my eyes, at least).
I wonder whether the band/Factory thought it was too good to just put it out on that obscure 'Funky Alternatives' release, so stuck it on the True Faith CDV.
They probably needed some incentive for people to buy that product, as I can't imagine many people would've bought it for the video (I don't think I've ever seen a CDV player!).

Incidentally, it might have helped sales if they'd identified that the True Faith (7 Inch) was actually an edit of the Shep Pettibone remix.
Again, the Blue Monday 1988 CDV was similarly mislabelled, with rare remixes on it. Typical Factory; fantastic care and attention to the design of the artwork, but completely half-arsed when it came to track listings. Gotta love 'em. :-)


On a simliar note, I was wondering about another curiousity from the 'Brotherhood' era:

Theme (hommage a la MGM).

First appearing here (credited to Be Music):

https://www.discogs.com/...233;puscule-Collection-1

Then here (again, as Be Music):

https://www.discogs.com/...g-Soundtracks-Volume-One

Third release (again, as Be Music):

https://www.discogs.com/...The-Be-Music-Productions

Then, finally (for now, at least):

https://www.discogs.com/...-Order-Presents-Be-Music

Interestingly, this last release was credited to Peter Hook, rather than BeMusic, and the name was given as 'Lavolta Lakota Theme'.


So, presumably, only Hooky was involved in this? No other band members? If so, that probably precluded it from getting a release on this box set.
I know Hooky was involved in the live sound for Lavolta Lakota (featuring Dave Hicks from Revenge) and I seem to think I read somewhere that Hooky used this music as the band's 'walk on' music. Not sure how true this is though (I may have imagined it).
Anyone know anything else about this obscure track?
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Mr Discography  
#140 Posted : 16 September 2024 10:19:35(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post
anyone know the story about 'evil dust'?
it really needed a good extended mix.. however evil dust is mostly instrumental..
made my own mix.. but really need to try again...

Here's an extended mix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9bqficwSio
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Fotz  
#141 Posted : 16 September 2024 10:28:53(UTC)
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I did once own a copy in the 80s of the LP of that Funky Alternatives comp with Evil Dust on. Alas, no longer have it as i , stupidly, sold a load of vinyl many years ago. I do have the True Faith CDV with it on though. I never bothered with the Blue Monday 88 CDV despite constantly seeing it for sale in Record shops in late 80s and early 90s.
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negative1  
#142 Posted : 16 September 2024 13:24:35(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post
anyone know the story about 'evil dust'?
it really needed a good extended mix.. however evil dust is mostly instrumental..
made my own mix.. but really need to try again...

Here's an extended mix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9bqficwSio



pretty average, they just put 1/2 of evil dust - then the album version - the 2nd half of evil dust at the end.

later
|| | ||
ne gative 1
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Subvulture  
#143 Posted : 16 September 2024 15:38:40(UTC)
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Interestingly, this last release was credited to Peter Hook, rather than BeMusic, and the name was given as 'Lavolta Lakota Theme'.


So, presumably, only Hooky was involved in this? No other band members? If so, that probably precluded it from getting a release on this box set.
I know Hooky was involved in the live sound for Lavolta Lakota (featuring Dave Hicks from Revenge) and I seem to think I read somewhere that Hooky used this music as the band's 'walk on' music. Not sure how true this is though (I may have imagined it).
Anyone know anything else about this obscure track?


Here is a link to the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0yozcJvL0

Edited by user 16 September 2024 16:06:30(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Andy  
#144 Posted : 16 September 2024 22:41:24(UTC)
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i understand keeping the Be Music tracks separate. Aside from them having recently been collected in the New Order Presents Be Music box, it would sort of be akin to including Revenge tracks in the Technique box.
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perspexorange  
#145 Posted : 17 September 2024 00:55:15(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andy Go to Quoted Post
i understand keeping the Be Music tracks separate. Aside from them having recently been collected in the New Order Presents Be Music box, it would sort of be akin to including Revenge tracks in the Technique box.


I agree, almost.

It just depends on how many band members were involved, I guess.

After all, wasn’t the Xmas flexi credited to Be Music?
And, although they weren’t particularly great, I don’t think there would’ve been much argument if they were included on a NO compilation. Disappointment maybe. 😉


So, I guess what I am saying is, if it was just Hooky, no inclusion on anything NO.
If it was him plus Bernard etc., yes.
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Mr Discography  
#146 Posted : 17 September 2024 03:04:14(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Andy Go to Quoted Post
i understand keeping the Be Music tracks separate. Aside from them having recently been collected in the New Order Presents Be Music box, it would sort of be akin to including Revenge tracks in the Technique box.


I agree, almost.

It just depends on how many band members were involved, I guess.

After all, wasn’t the Xmas flexi credited to Be Music?
And, although they weren’t particularly great, I don’t think there would’ve been much argument if they were included on a NO compilation. Disappointment maybe. 😉


So, I guess what I am saying is, if it was just Hooky, no inclusion on anything NO.
If it was him plus Bernard etc., yes.

Wonder how the Making Out tracks fit in. I think the first couple of series credited the music to New Order, but series three (when the production of the music changed slightly) was just The Other Two. I'd assume we'll get some of the series 1&2 tracks on the Technique set ('Vanishing Point' (Instrumenal Making Out Mix)' was on the 'Round & Round' single, after all.

Always wondered if Barney had any involvement in the Making Out tracks - it's certainly got Hooky on there.
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perspexorange  
#147 Posted : 17 September 2024 07:34:41(UTC)
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This has just been posted:







Stunning! Absolutely brilliant. A legendary band at their very peak.

Edited by user 17 September 2024 07:46:05(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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perspexorange  
#148 Posted : 17 September 2024 07:49:08(UTC)
perspexorange

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Originally Posted by: Subvulture Go to Quoted Post



Here is a link to the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0yozcJvL0


Thanks. yeah - I do know it, but it's only in recent years it's been labelled as 'Peter Hook' and 'Lavolta Lakota Theme'.
Just wondered if this was the correct designation, as it hadn't been labelled like that previously.
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Andy on 17/09/2024(UTC), Mr. Disco on 18/09/2024(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 13/10/2024(UTC)
Fotz  
#149 Posted : 17 September 2024 12:36:36(UTC)
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Ta for that link to the newly released G-Mex 86 clip, perspex.

1986...wow. Such a very very different time.

Hooky has enough before the end and exits stage. Barney throws his guitar at the end . Not enough Gillian in that clip methinks. Andy Robinson gets a look in though.

Can't remember who headlined was it The Smiths or NO.

Edited by user 17 September 2024 12:37:13(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Jul on 18/09/2024(UTC), Mr. Disco on 18/09/2024(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 13/10/2024(UTC)
Mr. Disco  
#150 Posted : 26 September 2024 17:00:20(UTC)
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The could release the 7" version of Shame of the Nation digitally... for the sake of completeness Big Grin
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ROCKET MICK on 13/10/2024(UTC)
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