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perspexorange  
#1 Posted : 31 January 2023 11:01:38(UTC)
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Too early for this? Possibly, but who cares eh? Always good to have things to mull over.

So what do we want to see?

My thoughts:

Firstly, I think we have to discuss the 'Substance' problem.

If they are going to do a Substance 'Definitive Edition', any material from 1986-7 could be split over two sets.
However, this might be a bit weird when it comes to what is featured in the books in each set; they'll basically be covering the same period.

As I've said before (many times, probably), I'm not convinced that Substance needs a 'Definitive Edition' (i.e. in the same style as the 'studio' LPs). An expanded 'deluxe' reissue would suit me. Just vinyl and/or CDs with expanded track listing would be fine.
Have all of the b-sides. Possibly add things like the original Temptation and Confusion 12"s, the original Ceremony, Confusion Dub '87 etc.
There is also the fact that most tracks on the release will have already been remastered by this point, so this compilation would seem more to be 'something nice to have' rather than 'something that is needed' (if you get my drift)
(All that being said, I would certainly buy a 'Definitive Edition' if they released one.)

The benefits of having split Definitives for both Brotherhood and Substance would be the possibility of more stuff and also being able to split the appropriate 12"s (of which there are more for this period than the other sets) over two separate release schedules.

As I'd prefer only one Definitive Edition for the period, I'll work on that premise for my 'wants'. So here we go with possible inclusions:

LP/CD1 - Full LP, remastered.:

I'd probably not include 'State Of The Nation' as I never really think of it as being part of the LP (although it was on the original CD version).

CD2 Various demo and rare tracks.:

Presumably there will be demos and writing sessions for most LP tracks.
I have demos of Paradise and As It Is When It Was, so we know some exist (NB The former sounds like more of a 'rough mix' and the latter might actually be from the Low-Life period).
It would be nice to have a vocal demo of Bizarre Love Triangle from this period containing those extra lines that feature in live versions from the period.

We also know that demos exist for the Salvation tracks, including a vocal demo for the 'Nothing For Me' variant of 'Let's Go'. Even if these weren't included, I'd be amenable to the actual released versions of the Salvation tracks being on there, considering their scarcity.

Considering the lack of many 'vocal' versions of demos on the last two sets, there might be a reluctance on the band's (Bernard's?) part to release demos like this. So, we might expect to see something similar for 'Brotherhood'.

Finally, there are a number of different mixes of Blue Monday 1988 available online that have appeared before. Maybe one of these could feature. I can't remember if any of these are any good or worth including though.

DVDs:

TV performances:

The Tube (Broken Promise & State Of The Nation)
Les Enfants Du Rock (Paradise & BLT)
TOTP (True Faith)
The Roxy (True Faith)
Palarock Festival (True Faith)

Gigs - the ones I know about that were filmed (at least partially) from the period are:

27/01/86 Queen's College, Belfast (from 'Channel One' TV programme)
29/06/86 Greetings 4, Valdarno, San Giovanni (from BLT video)
19/07/86 GMEX (from 'Rock Of Europe' TV programme)
04/10/86 Town & Country Club, London (from bootleg)
06/10/86 Royal Albert Hall, London (from State Of The Nation video and bootleg)
13/10/86 The Hacienda, Manchester (from State Of The Nation video and bootleg)
05/12/86 1018 Club, New York (from '120 Minutes' TV programme)
04/04/87 Brixton Academy, London (from 'Academy' video - would be nice to get this without all those crappy effects on it)
10/06/87 The Hacienda, Manchester (from bootleg)
19/06/87 Glastonbury Festival, Pilton (from True Faith video and bootleg)
25/08/87 Pier 84, New York (from bootleg)
05/09/87 Civic Centre, Pittsburgh (from 'Jerry Lewis Muscular Distrophy Labor Day Telethon' TV programme)
09/12/87 Mutualité, Paris (from 'Radio' / 'A2' TV programmes and bootleg)

Any others?
If not, there's plenty to chose from in the list above (if, of course' these are mostly complete or 'release quality').

If two sets were released, it would be fun to include one of those gigs where the band played 'Substance' in order on that particular box set. Not sure if any of those gigs were filmed though.

Accompanying 12"s:

State Of The Nation
Bizarre Love Triangle
True Faith
True Faith (Remix)
Touched By The Hand Of God
Blue Monday 1988

6 singles, which seems a lot. If they were split over two sets, I guess you'd go with the first two alongside 'Brotherhood' and the rest with 'Substance'.



Anyway, fun to speculate. And, who knows, one or two of our ideas might be taken on board by the powers that be.

Edited by user 31 January 2023 11:05:25(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Fotz  
#2 Posted : 31 January 2023 11:18:19(UTC)
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Ooh, negzy lad may have a point afterallLaugh

Bit early in my op.

The only singles i associate with Brotherhood are BLT and State.

The singles i associate with the Substance period are True Faith and TBTHOG and at a push BM 88.

I really don't think it works having a definitive edition of Substance though.Leave it.So that'd mean having True Faith and TBHOG bundled in with the Brotherhood era. Could you associate TBTHOG in with Brotherhood? It was released around a whole year after. But Thieves Like Us was released a year after PCL and yet it was associated with that period for the PCL box. And TBTHOG's live debut was only a few months after Brotherhood's realease anyway.Where BM 88 would stand then is anybody's guess.Just leave it, i guess. I mean, the original was in with the PCL period. That's enough!

Anyway, trying to consider which singles belong with which period makes my head hurt. Leave it to the powers that be to figure it out.

Edited by user 31 January 2023 11:50:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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perspexorange  
#3 Posted : 31 January 2023 11:34:39(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post

Anyway, trying to consider which singles belong with which period makes my head hurt. Leave it to the powers that be to figure it out.


It's a headache, for certain.

I'm really undecided myself, to be honest.

Lump 'em all together is my current thinking, but I might change my mind by next week. Big Grin



Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
Could you associate TBTHOG in with Brotherhood?

Well, considering Maradona's infamous 'hand of God' (*) occurred in the '86 World Cup, I reckon we can. :-)


(*) cross-reference to 'cheating'

Edited by user 31 January 2023 11:40:37(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Fotz  
#4 Posted : 31 January 2023 12:33:13(UTC)
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If The Tube appearance March 86 is included in a Brotherhood box i'd hope for the full Broken Promise.Recall the credits started rolling half way through. I don't think they did any other songs after end of the broadcast but if they did, obvs would like to see. But i've never been aware of any other song that only the studio audience witnessed.
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Andy  
#5 Posted : 31 January 2023 13:02:08(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Too early for this?


Yes.

Having said that, why not start a thread for a potential Substance one as well?



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GotBlueEyes  
#6 Posted : 31 January 2023 13:02:31(UTC)
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haha - i did wonder when this thread would show up!

If pushed I'd say they will reissue Substance on vinyl in some sort of special anniversary sleeve/coloured vinyl (like they did with UP and Still)
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prog99  
#7 Posted : 31 January 2023 14:12:59(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post
haha - i did wonder when this thread would show up!

If pushed I'd say they will reissue Substance on vinyl in some sort of special anniversary sleeve/coloured vinyl (like they did with UP and Still)

Every 12" in a boxed set? Or some take on the original concept of Tony wanting all the New Order singles for his cutting edge at the time in car cd player. The whole catalogue on a usb stick...
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perspexorange  
#8 Posted : 31 January 2023 14:51:02(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Too early for this?


Yes.

Having said that, why not start a thread for a potential Substance one as well?





To be fair, the Low-life thread was actually started (not by me that time) on the day that PC&L was released.
So, I think I was quite patient waiting four days this time. Big Grin


As regards starting a new thread for 'Substance', I'll leave that for others. I don't want to get accused of spamming the boards... Wink
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50poundnote  
#9 Posted : 31 January 2023 16:11:37(UTC)
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Coming out of lurk mode long enough to comment.

There needs to be a deluxe/definitive edition of Substance. It's just as - if not more - important than any of their studio albums, and to this day is considered the definitive collection, even though it's been out of print for years.

Here in the States, it was most peoples' entry point to the band. Just because you don't want it or find it unnecessary doesn't mean the rest of us do. I want more content from my favorite band, not less.

None of the remastered 12" singles thus far have appeared on their respective box sets. They need to be gathered together in one place, on physical digital media, a.k.a. CD.

1. Substance double LP in embossed sleeve with the uncut version of The Perfect Kiss and the '87 re-recordings of Temptation and Confusion.

2. Single CD of the same, since timing would allow for including the unedited TPK.

3. Three additional CDs comprising every original mix (Temptation, Confusion), B-side, and remix from the 12" singles: (1) Ceremony to Confusion, (2) Thieves Like Us to Shellshock, and (3) State Of The Nation to True Faith.

That's one double LP and four CDs. That's a box.

Going forward, Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday 88 would be rolled into the Technique box, which would then start including all the remixes on CD. Instead of 2 CDs per box it would bump uo to 4 or 5 - however many are needed to keep all the Factory years together.
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50poundnote  
#10 Posted : 31 January 2023 16:21:07(UTC)
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The only alternative I can see is that once they've released a Technique box, they actually release Recycle as it was envisioned, as a box of 20 CDs, one for each single from Ceremony through World In Motion, in miniature replica sleeves, each including the various versions, edits, and remixes of their respective singles.
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perspexorange  
#11 Posted : 01 February 2023 03:54:19(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post


There needs to be a deluxe/definitive edition of Substance.

...

Just because you don't want it or find it unnecessary doesn't mean the rest of us do.


I don't think that anyone is arguing that a 'deluxe version' is not needed. In fact I outlined what I'd like to see and it isn't very different to your vision:

Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Just vinyl and/or CDs with expanded track listing would be fine.
Have all of the b-sides. Possibly add things like the original Temptation and Confusion 12"s, the original Ceremony, Confusion Dub '87 etc.


Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post


1. Substance double LP in embossed sleeve with the uncut version of The Perfect Kiss and the '87 re-recordings of Temptation and Confusion.

2. Single CD of the same, since timing would allow for including the unedited TPK.

3. Three additional CDs comprising every original mix (Temptation, Confusion), B-side, and remix from the 12" singles: (1) Ceremony to Confusion, (2) Thieves Like Us to Shellshock, and (3) State Of The Nation to True Faith.

That's one double LP and four CDs. That's a box.



I'm just saying that, if it followed the format of the other 'studio' LPs, there will be some overlap (the book and DVDs, for instance).

You haven't mentioned whether you'd like to see a book and DVD in a 'Substance' set.
Would you? If so, what would you like them to cover?

The 'Definitive Editions' are, in my opinion, a record of the band in specific periods of their career. 'Era' box sets, if you like, with the books detailing the years in question and recording process of the songs of that era.
'Substance' crosses all of the previous periods, so it's just not the same (however important it is; it was my entry point to the band also).

I think we're probably arguing over the same thing. We both want to see an expanded 'Substance'. The only difference is, I just don't think it needs to follow exactly the same format as the 'studio LPs'. After all, it isn't one.

Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
I want more content from my favorite band, not less.



Agreed. Completely. I'll buy any format of 'Substance' when it comes out. It's important to me and I love the LP.



I suppose what concerns me is whether I'll ever get to hear some of the stuff in the archives, due to the the length of time these things take to put together.
Prior to 'Low-life' it'd been over two years since the last box. I really appreciate the effort that goes into these things (including trying to get material 'passed' by two diametrically-opposed parties). Two years is probably a realistic timeframe for any set.

However, this means that, going by two years per set, we won't get to WFTSC until 2033.
If 'Substance' was expanded to include a book and DVD, and shuffled in between on the release schedule, we're talking 2035 potentially.

That's a long way off. Long enough for, potentially, Warners etc. to pull the plug on releasing big box sets.
I hope that's not the case but it's always possible (after all, we never got 'Rhino' expanded editions of 'Republic', 'Get Ready' and 'WFTSC').

It might be feasible to release a scaled back 'Substance' almost alongside one of the studio LPs. And by scaled back, I don't mean 'bare-bones'. Let's have the B-Sides and mixes from the period, in a lavish sleeve. Just no book, no DVDs and no 'previously unreleased' material that might cause 'sticking points' on the road to release. Everything would've been released at some point in the past, so might not cause too much consternation; it's just recycling old stuff, albeit in a remastered format.

If you think about it, 2027 might be a good year for it. 40th anniversary and all that.
Going by the 'two year' gap mentioned above, this would be the likely year of release anyway, even if it was released as a 'Definitive' set with a book.
This way, we might get both 'Technique' and an expanded 'Substance' in one year.

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negative1  
#12 Posted : 01 February 2023 06:56:39(UTC)
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i've said before, and i'll say it again.

substance is not an album, and doesnt need to be shoehorned into this series.

if they want to do something with it afterwards, thats fine. but not in the middle of a sequence.

anyhow.

brotherhood would be the last boxset i would be interested in.

i actually saw them on this tour in the US. and some live shows, outtakes,
and maybe some of the early versions of the tracks would be interesting to listen to.
in the same format as the other ones.

i will say, that in the canadian, japanese and (as mentioned) UK releases of the cd's all included
'state of the nation' on them. but not on the LPs or cassette versions. and not on
the US versions in any format.

so maybe a case could be made to include that along with the boxset.

and also of course the artwork fits in well, with the other single released.
sure, throw in the true faith singles. but that should be it. blue monday 88
and touched by the hand of God are their own releases.

later
-1
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GotBlueEyes  
#13 Posted : 01 February 2023 08:40:15(UTC)
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Radical idea for a Substance box would simply be to release it with the True Faith 12" and an 12'' with the Substance cover that has Temptation 87 and Confusion 87 on one side and the Hurt edit and Confusion 87 dub on the other
But have space in the box to put all the other 12" reissues from the deluxe campaigns (or to house your original 12"s if you have them)


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Andy  
#14 Posted : 01 February 2023 10:35:10(UTC)
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This is why I suggested a Substance thread.

There are a lot of strong feelings for that collection and what goes on with its inevitable remaster (Collector's versus Definitive edition) is intertwined with what goes in the Brotherhood box. Less than a year separate the original releases.
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Mr Discography  
#15 Posted : 01 February 2023 10:48:12(UTC)
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If they base the accompanying 12" re-releases on the Brotherhood Collectors Edition bonus disc, we'll get State, Bizarre, True Faith True Faith Remix and Blue Monday 88 all with the Brotherhood set. Be good to finally get a digital single release of True Dub, after the wrong version was put on CD2 of Brotherhood two times in a row!

We've debated pros and cons of a Substance definitive several times, and I think Jonny said the band had been considering it. Given the time it takes to compile, plan and annotate the definitive album sets, maybe one alternative idea would be for a Substance remaster and re-release to fill the gap between Brotherhood and Technique. Don't give it the full boxed set treatment, just separate double LP (same tracks, edits and versions as 1987 LP including full, unedited Perfect Kiss 12"), and 3 x CD (same tracks, edits and versions as original double tape - with exception of including the full, unedited Perfect Kiss 12").

Be a great way to maintain the chronology of the Factory album releases, and keep it a distinct artefact to the other definitive album boxes. Not overly worried about additional bonus discs containing the other remixes, but would be happy with a definitive or "non-definitive" style re-release, either way!

Could mop up the as yet un-re-released 7" B-sides and edits with accompanying digital reissues of all the separate 7" singles on download and streaming platforms.

Also hoping the frequency of reissues will speed up a little. It was 18 months from Movement to PCL, then over two years until Low-Life. Adore these sets and the obvious effort and hard work that goes into releasing them, but fingers crossed for Brotherhood and those that follow to come out a bit sooner. One every 9 to 12 months would be ideal!

Loving the Low-life set. Has been on heavy rotation, particularly disc two, and will be working my way through one live set off the DVDs each weekend for a few weeks!
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GotBlueEyes  
#16 Posted : 01 February 2023 11:33:59(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post

Could mop up the as yet un-re-released 7" B-sides and edits with accompanying digital reissues of all the separate 7" singles on download and streaming platforms.


The main one for me was the Procession/EGG single not being included in the Movement era singles reissues. I know they stuck to the 12"s only, but surely they need the same treatment?

But back on topic - maybe we just rename this thread as the Brotherhood/Substance Definitive Editions until anyone from the band's camp says what the plan is.
Can't discuss one without the other. As Andy points out - the timeline was pretty compressed

Low-life - May 1985
The Perfect Kiss - May 1985
Sub-Culture - October 1985
Shellshock - March 1986 (so that was 10 months after Low-life if we're looking at the precedents)

then

State Of The Nation - 15 September 1986
Brotherhood - 29 September 1986
Bizarre Love Triangle - November 1986

True Faith - July 1987 (10 months after Brotherhood...)
Substance - August 1987
Touched By The Hand Of God - December 1987
Blue Monday 88 - April 1988


then

Fine Time - November 1988
Technique - January 1989
Round & Round - February 1989
Run - August 1989
World In Motion - May 1990

Then it becomes a bit easier to draw a line between all THAT and Republic!










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Andy  
#17 Posted : 01 February 2023 11:56:48(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andy Go to Quoted Post
This is why I suggested a Substance thread.

There are a lot of strong feelings for that collection and what goes on with its inevitable remaster (Collector's versus Definitive edition) is intertwined with what goes in the Brotherhood box. Less than a year separate the original releases.


I said "inevitable" primarily due to it still holding the crown as their best selling release. I can't imagine they'll just leave it out of print. If the "True Faith" single, "Temptation" and "Confusion" re-recordings end up in the Brotherhood box, that shuts the case on a Definitive Substance. But I still think a Collector's Edition would be warrented, however that would look.





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Johnny James  
#18 Posted : 01 February 2023 13:46:34(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post


The main one for me was the Procession/EGG single not being included in the Movement era singles reissues. I know they stuck to the 12"s only, but surely they need the same treatment?



Procession & Mesh did get the remastered treatment for the 1981-1982 EP (Nov 2014).

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fac637  
#19 Posted : 01 February 2023 18:56:52(UTC)
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Never too early to start talking about the Brotherhood box for me given that other than Movement (with the Hurrah’s show as a 3-piece), it’s the collection I’ve personally been looking forward to the most.

1) Because it’s selfishly the first album I got to buy upon realease having gotten into them in late ‘85 or early ‘86 and it was also the first tour where I got to see them so I’ve always had a fondness for the album. (Plus there are some real gems on there All Day Long, Angel Dust, and Paradise are bangers).


And

2) There’s somewhat of a dearth of soundboards after the early-86 mini-tour (where over half the songs weren’t even performed), so if the format follows as it has then I’m interested to see what makes the DVD(s). Granted there are some great audience tapes from the ‘87 Australian tour but I would be interested to hear what is in the official archive as far as live material.

I definitely wouldn’t want it combined with the Substance era stuff. True Faith and TBTHOG from a musical and sleeve art standpoint definitely belong in the Substance era and not the Brotherhood tidy little bundle of the LP, SOTN and BLT.

That said, I do hope they do something with Substance, just maybe not in the “Definitive Edition Series”. I’ve always fancied a version that had all the full versions (unedited TPK and Shellshock) with all the b-sides from the original factory cassettes and maybe Perfect pit as well. Could be spread over 3Cds with TBHOG and Blue Monday ‘88 (plus their remixes and confusion ‘87 dub).

If you wanted to go the full box set treatment I’ve always thought the Irvine substance show would be great to include (I know there was a website back in the day that had pictures of a bunch of Rob Gretton “artifacts” and there was a copy pictured there. Dunno if it has ever circulated but it would be a great inclusion if it were up to snuff for release at all (maybe edit out the f*ggot intro to True Faith). And/or toss in the Academy video to this instead of Brotherhood since the setlist runs more like a greatest hits show than the Brotherhood tour anyway.

But if they did want to include it in this same series, there certainly seem to be plenty of songs from Substance that haven’t gotten any “writing session/demo” versions released. So far: EGG, Temptation, Confusion, In A Lonely Place, Lonesome Tonight, Shellshock, Hurt. Just depends of course in what is still out there that the band might deem worthy of release.

Anyway, look forward to receiving my LL box maybe someday in 2023 when the new order store finally ships it out. But that’s another post entirely
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GotBlueEyes  
#20 Posted : 02 February 2023 00:54:43(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Johnny James Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post


The main one for me was the Procession/EGG single not being included in the Movement era singles reissues. I know they stuck to the 12"s only, but surely they need the same treatment?



Procession & Mesh did get the remastered treatment for the 1981-1982 EP (Nov 2014).



Wow - no idea how I missed that. Maybe because it was an RSD thing, so I wrote it off as standing no chance of getting a copy, but I have no memory of this being reissued on clear vinyl!

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Mr. Disco  
#21 Posted : 02 February 2023 05:25:54(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
Could you associate TBTHOG in with Brotherhood?

Well, considering Maradona's infamous 'hand of God' (*) occurred in the '86 World Cup, I reckon we can. :-)


(*) cross-reference to 'cheating'

In my personal timeline, TBTHOG is a Brotherhood era single, as much as WIM is a Technique era single.

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ROCKET MICK on 02/02/2023(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#22 Posted : 02 February 2023 12:26:40(UTC)
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One suggestion for the 'True Faith' Remix 12" and digital reissue. It should have the tracklist of the Australian version, with 'Paradise (Remix)' instead of '1963'. This avoids duplicating '1963', which appeared on both main and remix 12" singles here in the UK.

Edited by user 02 February 2023 12:27:52(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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tapebias  
#23 Posted : 02 February 2023 12:30:19(UTC)
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Quick opinion on Substance. They couldn't get it right first time round so not much hope for next time. Imagine being a casual fan and getting Temptation 87 instead of the original.
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Mr Discography  
#24 Posted : 02 February 2023 12:48:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: tapebias Go to Quoted Post
Quick opinion on Substance. They couldn't get it right first time round so not much hope for next time. Imagine being a casual fan and getting Temptation 87 instead of the original.

Temptation 87 is the best version. Same with Confusion 87.
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tapebias  
#25 Posted : 02 February 2023 13:02:34(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tapebias Go to Quoted Post
Quick opinion on Substance. They couldn't get it right first time round so not much hope for next time. Imagine being a casual fan and getting Temptation 87 instead of the original.

Temptation 87 is the best version. Same with Confusion 87.


Maybe, but Substance isn't all the original versions. It could have included the 87 versions as extras somewhere along with the originals.

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ROCKET MICK on 02/02/2023(UTC), Mr. Disco on 03/02/2023(UTC)
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