I was one such casual fan in 1987, and loved Substance (still my favourite all time album). I knew from the sleeve notes that Temptation and Confusion were re-recordings, so then hunted down the original 12" releases, but I always thought the Substance versions were superior - as New Order explained it at the time, they wanted to record versions that were more representative of how the live arrangements sounded. Plus there were obvious limitations with the amount of music you could fit on two CDs, so it helped that the re-recordings were shorter than the original 12 inch versions. If Substance had included the original 12" versions, and the 87 re-recordings it would've needed to be three CDs/tapes instead of two. Substance was my route from a casual fan into tracking down those other great twelve inch singles.

As I explored their back catalogue more, I slowly realised that a few other Substance tracks weren't the original 12" versions (Perfect Kiss, Subculture, Shellshock and Hurt were all edited down slightly). Of those four, I actually think all but Perfect Kiss benefit from being a bit shorter. All of that contributes to what makes Substance my favourite album: New Order's first twelve singles, but in their best versions. And yeah, it may technically be a a mere compilation, but the time, place, and versions of the tracks selected, for me, make it transcend that status to an iconic Album. Hence why a CD reissue would be ideal if it was the same disc 1, but with the full Perfect Kiss 12" (effectively, the same versions as the Substance vinyl LP). Substance was always more than a collection of their first twelve 12" singles - which we can all compile playlists of for ourselves now easily anyway.

They definitely got it right first time round.

Edited by user 02 February 2023 16:25:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I hate to sound like a broken vinyls (sic), but we obviously need a separate Substance thread (or you could just edit this one's title!)...

It's not the 7" version, I don't think. I think it was a new edit.

7" was 3:28
Substance edit was 4:48

Just to confuse matters, there was also a Factory Benelux only remix at 4:58. I think that appeared on a 7" single in the FBN territories, but I could be wrong.



Hmm. Good question. I think the version on Substance is the version that was on later pressings of the 12", rather than the original.
But don't hold me to that.
Mr Discography is bound to know for sure.

The 3:26 Sub-culture was the 7" (that appears on 'Singles'). Substance edit is a unique shorter version of the 12". Not aware of it ever being released elsewhere - never heard of it being on a US 12". The Belgian 7 FAC 133 featured 'Sub-culture (Remix Edit)' (4:58), which is another unique edit, similar length to the Substance edit, but not the same.

''In A Lonely Place' on Substance is, in fact a slightly alternate take that never appeared (as far as I remember) on either of the two Ceremony 12" singles. This alternate version appeared elsewhere I think (Retro?), But was the correct version on both Ceremony reissues that came out with the Movement box.

I'd forgotten about this error with Substance, so yes, that'd be another one to correct with any reissue - by including the original version that came out on both twelve inches.

Good point - I have no idea. I'd guess a purple-ish blue.

I was looking at the current vinyl reissue of Brotherhood and I hate what they did to the sleeve. The Definitive Box edition should restore the original metallic sleeve thank god

Any news / rumours of this box set , either timescales ( this year??) or of content?

I'm ready to buy

Thanks for the update, JJ.

How about the JD live set? Any news you could share? Is it likely to come out this year, format etc?

There's not much I can say, but it's moving along.

The album that me in to New Order. Still love side A in particular

I've liked them a lot. On Movement i loved stuff like the Cargo demos and the Peppermint Lounge gig. The P,C&L one is beautiul. Great little details like the CD sleeve being an exact miniature replica of the vinyl sleeve complete with the die cut holes. Love stuff like the early writing session version of TLU.The remastered 12" singles that accompany sound really good.Strangely though, i didn't find the sound of the vinyl of the remastered album itself that great

The Low Life box was one i'd been looking forward to a lot.Really interesting to hear previously unreleased writing session recordings and demos.And another exact miniature replica CD sleeve. I find i only play the extras CD from that box though. I wasn't blown away with the DVDs.


I think the hardback books on all are essential to complete the package.

Would be good if the releases were a bit more freqeunt and could be sped up but i appreciate it takes a lot of time to get these sets together.


The boxes and remastered reissue 12"s have become the only music i buy physically these days. I haven't bought a regular vinyl album or CD for a long time.

Agreed. The FACt that the BBC 'Rock Around the Clock' feature is absent from the Low-Life DVDs still bothers me.

The Movement box is flawless, very complete with the demos and unseen videos.

It's been nearly 15 months since the Low-life box, and 6 months since the deluxe edition of Substance. Any word on the Brotherhood box?

Great news, thank you! Just out of curiosity, has there been any discussion about how far the sets will go? Factory-only? Republic? All the way up to Music Complete?