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Mr Discography		#26 Posted : 02 February 2023 14:01:12(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 352 Thanks: 4 times Was thanked: 625 time(s) in 353 post(s)		Originally Posted by: tapebias Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Originally Posted by: tapebias Quick opinion on Substance. They couldn't get it right first time round so not much hope for next time. Imagine being a casual fan and getting Temptation 87 instead of the original. Temptation 87 is the best version. Same with Confusion 87. Maybe, but Substance isn't all the original versions. It could have included the 87 versions as extras somewhere along with the originals. I was one such casual fan in 1987, and loved Substance (still my favourite all time album). I knew from the sleeve notes that Temptation and Confusion were re-recordings, so then hunted down the original 12" releases, but I always thought the Substance versions were superior - as New Order explained it at the time, they wanted to record versions that were more representative of how the live arrangements sounded. Plus there were obvious limitations with the amount of music you could fit on two CDs, so it helped that the re-recordings were shorter than the original 12 inch versions. If Substance had included the original 12" versions, and the 87 re-recordings it would've needed to be three CDs/tapes instead of two. Substance was my route from a casual fan into tracking down those other great twelve inch singles. As I explored their back catalogue more, I slowly realised that a few other Substance tracks weren't the original 12" versions (Perfect Kiss, Subculture, Shellshock and Hurt were all edited down slightly). Of those four, I actually think all but Perfect Kiss benefit from being a bit shorter. All of that contributes to what makes Substance my favourite album: New Order's first twelve singles, but in their best versions. And yeah, it may technically be a a mere compilation, but the time, place, and versions of the tracks selected, for me, make it transcend that status to an iconic Album. Hence why a CD reissue would be ideal if it was the same disc 1, but with the full Perfect Kiss 12" (effectively, the same versions as the Substance vinyl LP). Substance was always more than a collection of their first twelve 12" singles - which we can all compile playlists of for ourselves now easily anyway. They definitely got it right first time round. Edited by user 02 February 2023 16:25:49(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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perspexorange		#27 Posted : 02 February 2023 14:26:39(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 20/10/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,250 Location: Salop Thanks: 451 times Was thanked: 3447 time(s) in 2250 post(s)		Originally Posted by: tapebias Maybe, but Substance isn't all the original versions. It could have included the 87 versions as extras somewhere along with the originals. To bring this around to TBTHOG being loosely tied into Substance, as we all know, the CD single was meant to contain the original Temptation 12” as a concession to not being on Substance. In true Factory fashion, they messed it up and put the 87 version on it instead. (The cover also ties it up to True Faith and Substance with those colourised aspects of nature (shells, coral, flowers and leaves).

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Andy		#28 Posted : 03 February 2023 12:04:35(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,124 Location: Seaside, California Thanks: 1434 times Was thanked: 3069 time(s) in 2142 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Andy This is why I suggested a *Substance* thread. There are a lot of strong feelings for that collection and what goes on with its inevitable remaster (Collector's versus Definitive edition) is intertwined with what goes in the *Brotherhood* box. Less than a year separate the original releases. I hate to sound like a broken vinyls (sic), but we obviously need a separate *Substance* thread (or you could just edit this one's title!)...
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Andy		#29 Posted : 03 February 2023 12:43:47(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,124 Location: Seaside, California Thanks: 1434 times Was thanked: 3069 time(s) in 2142 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Originally Posted by: tapebias Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Originally Posted by: tapebias Quick opinion on Substance. They couldn't get it right first time round so not much hope for next time. Imagine being a casual fan and getting Temptation 87 instead of the original. Temptation 87 is the best version. Same with Confusion 87. Maybe, but Substance isn't all the original versions. It could have included the 87 versions as extras somewhere along with the originals. I was one such casual fan in 1987, and loved Substance (still my favourite all time album). I knew from the sleeve notes that Temptation and Confusion were re-recordings, so then hunted down the original 12" releases, but I always thought the Substance versions were superior - as New Order explained it at the time, they wanted to record versions that were more representative of how the live arrangements sounded. Plus there were obvious limitations with the amount of music you could fit on two CDs, so it helped that the re-recordings were shorter than the original 12 inch versions. If Substance had included the original 12" versions, and the 87 re-recordings it would've needed to be three CDs/tapes instead of two. Substance was my route from a casual fan into tracking down those other great twelve inch singles. As I explored their back catalogue more, I slowly realised that a few other Substance tracks weren't the original 12" versions (Perfect Kiss, Subculture, Shellshock and Hurt were all edited down slightly). Of those four, I actually think all but Perfect Kiss benefit from being a bit shorter. All of that contributes to what makes Substance my favourite album: New Order's first twelve singles, but in their best versions. And yeah, it may technically be a a mere compilation, but the time, place, and versions of the tracks selected, for me, make it transcend that status to an iconic Album. Hence why a CD reissue would be ideal if it was the same disc 1, but with the full Perfect Kiss 12" (effectively, the same versions as the Substance vinyl LP). Substance was always more than a collection of their first twelve 12" singles - which we can all compile playlists of for ourselves now easily anyway. They definitely got it right first time round. "...edited down slightly." You know better than that. But I do agree that a remaster should duplicate the original tracklisting. Bonus discs can round up all the full unedited versions along with "Confusion Dub 1987". As the Definitive Editions focus on unreleased tracks as opposed to mixes, the "Paradise Remix" should also be included here along with the "True Faith" mixes instead of in the *Brotherhood* box. I would argue that the "Touched by the Hand of God" and "Blue Monday 1988" mixes should be there as well, not pushed to *Technique. Substance* tracks that are not the original 12" versions: Ceremony [re-recorded] Temptation [re-recorded] Hurt [over a minute edited out] Confusion [re-recorded] The Perfect Kiss [around 40 seconds edited out] Sub-Culture [7" version instead, 2.5 minutes shorter] Shellshock [around 3 minutes edited out] [Help me, somebody help me: Does somebody know offhand if they used the correct mix of "In a Lonely Place"?]
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perspexorange		#30 Posted : 03 February 2023 12:57:37(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 20/10/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,250 Location: Salop Thanks: 451 times Was thanked: 3447 time(s) in 2250 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Andy Sub-Culture [7" version instead, 2.5 minutes shorter] It's not the 7" version, I don't think. I think it was a new edit. 7" was 3:28 Substance edit was 4:48 Just to confuse matters, there was also a Factory Benelux only remix at 4:58. I think that appeared on a 7" single in the FBN territories, but I could be wrong. Originally Posted by: Andy [Help me, somebody help me: Does somebody know offhand if they used the correct mix of "In a Lonely Place"?] Hmm. Good question. I think the version on Substance is the version that was on later pressings of the 12", rather than the original. But don't hold me to that. Mr Discography is bound to know for sure.

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Andy		#31 Posted : 03 February 2023 13:04:42(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,124 Location: Seaside, California Thanks: 1434 times Was thanked: 3069 time(s) in 2142 post(s)		Originally Posted by: perspexorange Originally Posted by: Andy Sub-Culture [7" version instead, 2.5 minutes shorter] It's not the 7" version, I don't think. I think it was a new edit. 7" was 3:28 Substance edit was 4:48 Just to confuse matters, there was also a Factory Benelux only remix at 4:58. I think that appeared on a 7" single in the FBN territories, but I could be wrong. Originally Posted by: Andy [Help me, somebody help me: Does somebody know offhand if they used the correct mix of "In a Lonely Place"?] Hmm. Good question. I think the version on Substance is the version that was on later pressings of the 12", rather than the original. But don't hold me to that. Mr Discography is bound to know for sure. Correct on "Sub-Culture". Was thinking the 3.5 minute mix was only a promo/radio edit because the remix/edit that appeared on *Substance* was also a bonus cut on the U.S. "Sub-Culture" 12". Mispoke about it being the standard 7".
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Mr Discography		#32 Posted : 03 February 2023 14:01:25(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 352 Thanks: 4 times Was thanked: 625 time(s) in 353 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Andy Originally Posted by: perspexorange Originally Posted by: Andy Sub-Culture [7" version instead, 2.5 minutes shorter] It's not the 7" version, I don't think. I think it was a new edit. 7" was 3:28 Substance edit was 4:48 Just to confuse matters, there was also a Factory Benelux only remix at 4:58. I think that appeared on a 7" single in the FBN territories, but I could be wrong. Originally Posted by: Andy [Help me, somebody help me: Does somebody know offhand if they used the correct mix of "In a Lonely Place"?] Hmm. Good question. I think the version on Substance is the version that was on later pressings of the 12", rather than the original. But don't hold me to that. Mr Discography is bound to know for sure. Correct on "Sub-Culture". Was thinking the 3.5 minute mix was only a promo/radio edit because the remix/edit that appeared on *Substance* was also a bonus cut on the U.S. "Sub-Culture" 12". Mispoke about it being the standard 7". The 3:26 Sub-culture was the 7" (that appears on 'Singles'). Substance edit is a unique shorter version of the 12". Not aware of it ever being released elsewhere - never heard of it being on a US 12". The Belgian 7 FAC 133 featured 'Sub-culture (Remix Edit)' (4:58), which is another unique edit, similar length to the Substance edit, but not the same. ''In A Lonely Place' on Substance is, in fact a slightly alternate take that never appeared (as far as I remember) on either of the two Ceremony 12" singles. This alternate version appeared elsewhere I think (Retro?), But was the correct version on both Ceremony reissues that came out with the Movement box. I'd forgotten about this error with Substance, so yes, that'd be another one to correct with any reissue - by including the original version that came out on both twelve inches.

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Mike C.		#33 Posted : 05 February 2023 15:31:32(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Republic Groups: Registered Joined: 03/06/2012(UTC) Posts: 129 Location: Atlanta, GA USA Thanks: 213 times Was thanked: 152 time(s) in 129 post(s)		Since the colour of gray has been taken I wonder what color they will choose for this one. Maybe metallic blue?
		...in a single breath, this world is gone...

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GotBlueEyes		#34 Posted : 06 February 2023 00:55:37(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 25/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 313 Thanks: 137 times Was thanked: 555 time(s) in 312 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mike C. Since the colour of gray has been taken I wonder what color they will choose for this one. Maybe metallic blue? Good point - I have no idea. I'd guess a purple-ish blue. I was looking at the current vinyl reissue of Brotherhood and I hate what they did to the sleeve. The Definitive Box edition should restore the original metallic sleeve thank god

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perspexorange		#35 Posted : 06 February 2023 03:23:46(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 20/10/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,250 Location: Salop Thanks: 451 times Was thanked: 3447 time(s) in 2250 post(s)		It baffled me why they changed the sleeve. They made it look like a rippled piece of cloth, rather than the stamped piece of metal that it actually was. It made no sense. At least not to me. Anyone know the reason why? But, yeah, restore it to it's original design and make it the metallic version, as opposed to the standard 'matt' version. And my vote would be a dark blue colour for the box.

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Col72		#36 Posted : 20 July 2023 08:26:07(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Village Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 60 Location: Fife Thanks: 120 times Was thanked: 84 time(s) in 61 post(s)		Any news / rumours of this box set , either timescales ( this year??) or of content? I'm ready to buy
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Johnny James		#37 Posted : 20 July 2023 13:27:39(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 439 Location: UK Was thanked: 954 time(s) in 439 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Col72 Any news / rumours of this box set , either timescales ( this year??) or of content? I'm ready to buy Not this year, that's the one thing I can say for sure.

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perspexorange		#38 Posted : 21 July 2023 03:15:39(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 20/10/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,250 Location: Salop Thanks: 451 times Was thanked: 3447 time(s) in 2250 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James Not this year, that's the one thing I can say for sure. Thanks for the update, JJ. How about the JD live set? Any news you could share? Is it likely to come out this year, format etc?

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50poundnote		#39 Posted : 12 February 2024 12:49:40(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Movement Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 514 Thanks: 31 times Was thanked: 924 time(s) in 515 post(s)		BUMP Johnny, and word on when we can expect this? Any hints as to what it may contain?
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Johnny James		#40 Posted : 13 February 2024 23:11:28(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 439 Location: UK Was thanked: 954 time(s) in 439 post(s)		Originally Posted by: 50poundnote BUMP Johnny, and word on when we can expect this? Any hints as to what it may contain? There's not much I can say, but it's moving along.

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50poundnote		#41 Posted : 14 February 2024 07:21:38(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Movement Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 514 Thanks: 31 times Was thanked: 924 time(s) in 515 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James There's not much I can say, but it's moving along. That's great to hear! It's not my favorite NO album, but it's the first one I bought as a new release, so it holds a special place in my heart. The live versions were better than the album, especially All Day Long and Angel Dust. Can't wait to hear what live material ends up in the set. I know it was technically the Substance tour, but the 8/25/1987 NYC gig that ended up as the Chapter III bootleg is my favorite NO gig. Would be thrilled if a soundboard of that exists, and shows up in the set. Edited by user 14 February 2024 07:23:44(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified
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The Shadow		#42 Posted : 14 February 2024 10:11:20(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 30/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 401 Location: Derby Thanks: 86 times Was thanked: 548 time(s) in 401 post(s)		The album that me in to New Order. Still love side A in particular
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tapebias		#43 Posted : 16 February 2024 15:26:43(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Republic Groups: Registered Joined: 28/11/2012(UTC) Posts: 156 Location: UK Thanks: 27 times Was thanked: 251 time(s) in 156 post(s)		What's everyone's views on the boxsets so far? I've only got Movement which I got for a much reduced price - still think they are way overpriced and there is no need for a hardback book which could be smaller etc.

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Fotz		#44 Posted : 16 February 2024 22:42:55(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 2,617 Location: Down on the farm Thanks: 635 times Was thanked: 3617 time(s) in 2618 post(s)		Originally Posted by: tapebias What's everyone's views on the boxsets so far? I've only got Movement which I got for a much reduced price - still think they are way overpriced and there is no need for a hardback book which could be smaller etc. I've liked them a lot. On Movement i loved stuff like the Cargo demos and the Peppermint Lounge gig. The P,C&L one is beautiul. Great little details like the CD sleeve being an exact miniature replica of the vinyl sleeve complete with the die cut holes. Love stuff like the early writing session version of TLU.The remastered 12" singles that accompany sound really good.Strangely though, i didn't find the sound of the vinyl of the remastered album itself that great The Low Life box was one i'd been looking forward to a lot.Really interesting to hear previously unreleased writing session recordings and demos.And another exact miniature replica CD sleeve. I find i only play the extras CD from that box though. I wasn't blown away with the DVDs. I think the hardback books on all are essential to complete the package. Would be good if the releases were a bit more freqeunt and could be sped up but i appreciate it takes a lot of time to get these sets together. The boxes and remastered reissue 12"s have become the only music i buy physically these days. I haven't bought a regular vinyl album or CD for a long time.

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perspexorange		#45 Posted : 17 February 2024 02:17:20(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 20/10/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,250 Location: Salop Thanks: 451 times Was thanked: 3447 time(s) in 2250 post(s)		I love them. They are things of beauty. I will say though, that 'Movement' really hit it out of the park and I don't think that the other two sets have been quite as good (although still damn great). 'Movement' had the legendary Hurrah's gig, plus the Peppermint Lounge, which was just brilliant. Plus the Cargo demos were wonderful and the highlight for me. I regularly play those (probably more the LP versions). As regards the others, 'PC&L' had some great DVD stuff (especially the 2 x Hac and Kilkenny gigs). 'Low Life' was a little light on 'new' video stuff, basically having 2 x gigs (Tokyo and Leuven) that were in common circulation, but it was really good to see full Toronto/Rotterdam footage. Although I really liked the stuff on the CDs for the latter two sets, it was difficult to compare them to the Western Works/Cargo demos on 'Movement'. I have listened to them a few times, but don't find myself going back to them as much as 'Movement'. I think having vocals on demos makes them more interesting to me. I think JJ has commented that it is sometimes easier to get non-vocal demos approved by the band (Bernard?), but I would definitely love to hear vocal demos on the forthcoming sets. I love the books. They complete the package and help to make the package live up to their 'definitive' titles. My only slight criticism of them is that I wish they had digital copies of the books included too. Due to their slight unwieldy nature, I haven't read them all fully yet. I do most of my reading at night in bed and you can't really get away with taking them to bed (without the wife kicking me out). I've thought about trying to scan the books for my personal consumption, but haven't got around to that yet.

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Mr. Disco		#46 Posted : 17 February 2024 08:04:59(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Republic Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 196 Location: Brazil Thanks: 1079 times Was thanked: 371 time(s) in 196 post(s)		Originally Posted by: perspexorange I will say though, that 'Movement' really hit it out of the park and I don't think that the other two sets have been quite as good (although still damn great). Agreed. The FACt that the BBC 'Rock Around the Clock' feature is absent from the Low-Life DVDs still bothers me. The Movement box is flawless, very complete with the demos and unseen videos.
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Fotz		#47 Posted : 17 February 2024 09:32:44(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 2,617 Location: Down on the farm Thanks: 635 times Was thanked: 3617 time(s) in 2618 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr. Disco Originally Posted by: perspexorange I will say though, that 'Movement' really hit it out of the park and I don't think that the other two sets have been quite as good (although still damn great). Agreed. The FACt that the BBC 'Rock Around the Clock' feature is absent from the Low-Life DVDs still bothers me. It has been lost from the BBC archives i think was the reason.It was no longer available. Many fans have old VHS copies i guess could have been used but i guess it's a licensing issue? I don't know how these things work.The video quality wouldn't have been great but would have been no worse than some of the live footage that did make it on to the Definitive box set DVDs ( great to see those of course) so go figure. Edited by user 17 February 2024 09:39:31(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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50poundnote		#48 Posted : 05 April 2024 06:54:48(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Movement Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 514 Thanks: 31 times Was thanked: 924 time(s) in 515 post(s)		It's been nearly 15 months since the Low-life box, and 6 months since the deluxe edition of Substance. Any word on the Brotherhood box?
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Johnny James		#49 Posted : 05 April 2024 21:47:41(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 439 Location: UK Was thanked: 954 time(s) in 439 post(s)		Originally Posted by: 50poundnote It's been nearly 15 months since the Low-life box, and 6 months since the deluxe edition of Substance. Any word on the Brotherhood box? Currently still on schedule for this year. Working hard to hit the deadlines.

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50poundnote		#50 Posted : 06 April 2024 06:50:00(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Movement Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 514 Thanks: 31 times Was thanked: 924 time(s) in 515 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James Currently still on schedule for this year. Working hard to hit the deadlines. Great news, thank you! Just out of curiosity, has there been any discussion about how far the sets will go? Factory-only? Republic? All the way up to Music Complete?
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