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Mapping The Definitive Editions - Low-life
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Debaser  
#26 Posted : 03 October 2020 12:05:00(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post

As for the story about Saville hating the Subculture remix. What's the source?



Dunno about the source. It's again one of those things that was probably said in an article back in the day. ..

However, that kind of goes against what Saville says in that Discogs link above where he says 'No, all I can presume is that one was not asked for.' (which is presumably your source for Saville not being asked). However, this may have been an off the cuff remark...


Well Discogs isn't my direct source but the interview they refer to certainly is. I (and many of us?) watched it earlier this year as a sort of Lockdown special.
He was specifically asked the question by Dave Haslam and he gave a specific answer.
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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#27 Posted : 03 October 2020 13:02:36(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post

Well Discogs isn't my direct source but the interview they refer to certainly is. I (and many of us?) watched it earlier this year as a sort of Lockdown special.
He was specifically asked the question by Dave Haslam and he gave a specific answer.


Thanks for this.

Just checked that interview and he says the following as regards not liking the remix:

<smiling and shaking his head> "That's a degree of autonomy or freedom that I was not given. I was not free to choose. I could've said someone else could do it but I never had the authority to say there shouldn't be a sleeve. No, all I can presume is that one was not asked for."

So that pretty much scotches the rumour that he "hated the remix" and didn't design the sleeve for that reason.

However, I think the use of the word "presume" doesn't really confirm whether he was asked to design it or not. It's just his presumption, based on the fact that Haslam pointed out that he didn't do the sleeve. I got the feeling that he didn't properly remember the details of that particular project.

What is also odd is if, as he says, he 'presumes' that one wasn't asked for, why did they ask him to design the typography? That doesn't really make any sense. "Yeah, we'd like you to do the labels, but don't bother with a sleeve". Was it the band's intention to have a plain sleeve or get someone else to do it?

The Haslam interview continues:

Haslam: "I think maybe Rob Gretton wanted a kind of disco bag in the kind of (?) New York style."
Saville: "Maybe he wanted it by the end of the month and he knew that if he asked me that was not going to happen."

Lots of speculation with the answers to this question. Nothing clear cut.

There's something we're missing here, in my opinion.
Some reason for him doing the labels, but (seemingly) not doing the sleeve.

My theory has always, in the past, been 'lateness' (i.e. he was rushed during the project and only managed to get the labels done by the time of release).
But since that NOO thread linked to above, I'm torn between my theory and 50poundnote's theory that the black sleeve is the design.

Maybe it's a combination of both. Maybe Saville wasn't ready, but was happy enough with the label design and thought 'OK, how about I just 'clothe' the record in a nice black sleeve that'll show off the nifty typography I've put on the labels'.
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ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2020(UTC), Debaser on 04/10/2020(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#28 Posted : 03 October 2020 22:20:36(UTC)
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Subculture is also the only single never to have a vid made. I use that fact to break the ice at parties. I don't get invited to parties very often.
I thought the very reason they chose Gillian was that She WASN'T a maestro and wouldn't try to take over. Like my dad, she was good for slotting in. If you think about it, and even if you don't, 'I got some bits in' is a fucking hilarious thing for a band member to say. 'So John, tell us about your new album, Sergeant Pepper.' - 'Er yes, hahaha! I got some bits in on one track. Er yes, hahaha! I did one second all by myself! Hahaha!'
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ROCKET MICK on 04/10/2020(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#29 Posted : 03 October 2020 23:11:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post


From what I've read about him, he was not someone who particularly cared much about New Order's music. I can't really imagine him taking the time to listen to a test pressing, let alone dismiss it
Smile





This is an important point. In 1993 there was a massive Select article and he said people think you listen to the music and choose an appropriate image, but it's not the case. Often they'd contact him cos they needed a sleeve and he'd just give them whatever he happened to be working on at the time. The classic example Is the leaf on Goo Face, which I though was inspired by the theme of time passing. It was actually inspired by a fucking leaf.
As I said, the only source I know for the blank sleeve / snub story Is Paradise, so pinch of salt etc.
Savile is their secret weapon!
PS
https://selectmagazinesc....monkeon.co.uk/?cat=1044

Edited by user 03 October 2020 23:17:50(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK on 04/10/2020(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#30 Posted : 04 October 2020 01:02:20(UTC)
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Rocket Mick is these forums' secret weapon!
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ROCKET MICK on 04/10/2020(UTC)
GotBlueEyes  
#31 Posted : 04 October 2020 08:59:52(UTC)
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Does Skullcrusher fit on here? They were certainly playing it live around that time (with lyrics) and we know Let's Go (also on the Salvation! OST) dates back to 84/85 too and a studio version exists from the Lowlife sessions, wonder if they demo'ed Skullcrusher back then too?
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ROCKET MICK on 04/10/2020(UTC)
Fotz  
#32 Posted : 04 October 2020 09:24:11(UTC)
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Did the BBC film the whole of the (first) set at Hacienda,December 85? That Whistle Test thing. Has to be on the box if it exists.
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ROCKET MICK on 04/10/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#33 Posted : 04 October 2020 10:09:42(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
Did the BBC film the whole of the (first) set at Hacienda,December 85? That Whistle Test thing. Has to be on the box if it exists.


Sadly, Johnny James confirmed that the BBC stopped filming part way through the third track.
It’s a real shame because it looked like an awesome gig. That version of ‘Sunrise’ is one of my favourite live renditions.

Originally Posted by: Johnny James Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Thanks.

One I’d love to see is the complete gig from December 1985 (i.e. the one that was partly broadcast on The Old Grey Whistle Test).


Unfortunately the BBC stopped filmed part way through Face Up.

Edited by user 04 October 2020 10:16:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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M1  
#34 Posted : 06 October 2020 16:15:33(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
Low-life with The Perfect Kiss and Subculture

Brotherhood with Shellshock, State Of The Nation, and Bizarre Love Triangle

Substance with True Faith, TF Remix, Touched By The Hand Of God, and Blue Monday '88

(Rolls Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday '88 in on an extra CD, but preserves the track list of the original more or less)

Technique with Fine Time, FT Remix, Round & Round, Round & Remix, Run 2, World In Motion, and WIM Remix

(All the remaining remixes rolled in across 2 additional CDs)


If they follow the Collector's Edition bonus disc format, and are going to keep to 4 x 12" reissues alongside each box, it might be more like:

Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know)
Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88
Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion

And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.

Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.
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ROCKET MICK on 06/10/2020(UTC)
daftpunk  
#35 Posted : 06 October 2020 17:58:26(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: M1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
Low-life with The Perfect Kiss and Subculture

Brotherhood with Shellshock, State Of The Nation, and Bizarre Love Triangle

Substance with True Faith, TF Remix, Touched By The Hand Of God, and Blue Monday '88

(Rolls Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday '88 in on an extra CD, but preserves the track list of the original more or less)

Technique with Fine Time, FT Remix, Round & Round, Round & Remix, Run 2, World In Motion, and WIM Remix

(All the remaining remixes rolled in across 2 additional CDs)


If they follow the Collector's Edition bonus disc format, and are going to keep to 4 x 12" reissues alongside each box, it might be more like:

Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know)
Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88
Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion

And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.

Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.






I know I'm jumping the gun here quite a bit, but let's add Republic to the list too! In my dream of dreams, we'd get a bonus disc of all the tracks pre-Barney. Not that I don't love the final product, but it would be fantastic to hear the original versions after all these years...
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ROCKET MICK on 06/10/2020(UTC)
50poundnote  
#36 Posted : 06 October 2020 18:06:19(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: M1 Go to Quoted Post
Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know)
Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88
Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion

And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.

Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.


Nothing says they have to release 4 singles alongside each box, especially when it knocks the timeline out of whack.

Substance will surely be released between Brotherhood and Technique, where it belongs. It's just as much canon as any of the studio albums, and that's where these new single remasters will see a CD release.

Edited by user 06 October 2020 18:06:51(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK on 06/10/2020(UTC)
M1  
#37 Posted : 07 October 2020 15:40:34(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: M1 Go to Quoted Post
Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know)
Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88
Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion

And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.

Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.


Nothing says they have to release 4 singles alongside each box, especially when it knocks the timeline out of whack.

Substance will surely be released between Brotherhood and Technique, where it belongs. It's just as much canon as any of the studio albums, and that's where these new single remasters will see a CD release.


They didn't give Substance a reissue for the Collectors Editions, so they have form in not equating it with the studio albums.
Fingers crossed it does get the deluxe treatment though. I wouldn't object if they retooled it to mop up the Factory era 12"s. Side E: Touched / BM98 / Fine Time; Side F: R&R / Run2 / WiM

Edited by user 07 October 2020 17:04:29(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK on 07/10/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#38 Posted : 07 October 2020 22:54:21(UTC)
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I just hope it's not another 19 months until the 'Low-life' set gets released. One every six months please!
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ROCKET MICK on 08/10/2020(UTC)
50poundnote  
#39 Posted : 08 October 2020 08:03:54(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: M1 Go to Quoted Post
]They didn't give Substance a reissue for the Collectors Editions, so they have form in not equating it with the studio albums.
Fingers crossed it does get the deluxe treatment though. I wouldn't object if they retooled it to mop up the Factory era 12"s. Side E: Touched / BM98 / Fine Time; Side F: R&R / Run2 / WiM


It's wonderful that we even have this to debate. :D
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Rorschach on 08/10/2020(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 08/10/2020(UTC), M1 on 12/10/2020(UTC)
Fotz  
#40 Posted : 07 November 2020 07:57:43(UTC)
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Just remembered when i stumbled across it again when looking through some files on my laptop.That 'unknown and fairly advanced synth and sequencer song that never made it' one .The info on the file which i got from somewhere a couple of years back dates it as September 1984.So around the time they would have been near to getting into the studio to record Low Life in Autumn that year.Be good if they have a better audio of that one or could clean up what exists and include it on a Low Life definitive box.The recording is around 11-12 minutes long and has some great ideas and melodies in places and that car screeching skidding noise they used on Perfect Kiss at gigs.First heard it a couple years ago when i obtained the file.Just a thought.
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ROCKET MICK on 09/11/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#41 Posted : 07 November 2020 12:32:24(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
Just remembered when i stumbled across it again when looking through some files on my laptop.That 'unknown and fairly advanced synth and sequencer song that never made it' one .The info on the file which i got from somewhere a couple of years back dates it as September 1984.So around the time they would have been near to getting into the studio to record Low Life in Autumn that year.Be good if they have a better audio of that one or could clean up what exists and include it on a Low Life definitive box.The recording is around 11-12 minutes long and has some great ideas and melodies in places and that car screeching skidding noise they used on Perfect Kiss at gigs.First heard it a couple years ago when i obtained the file.Just a thought.

What's this track you're referring to here?
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ROCKET MICK on 09/11/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#42 Posted : 07 November 2020 13:27:00(UTC)
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I'm guessing Fotz is referring to the 12 minute track that is sometimes included on 'rehearsals' bootlegs of the band.

It's been labelled as from a rehearsal dated 02/09/84 and there are other early versions of different songs from the same date, including 'Paradise', 'Love Vigilantes' and 'This Time Of Night'.


If you haven't heard it, just send me a PM and I'll wing it (and the rest of the rehearsals) over to you. Same goes for anyone else that wants to hear these.
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ROCKET MICK on 09/11/2020(UTC)
Fotz  
#43 Posted : 07 November 2020 13:46:46(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
Just remembered when i stumbled across it again when looking through some files on my laptop.That 'unknown and fairly advanced synth and sequencer song that never made it' one .The info on the file which i got from somewhere a couple of years back dates it as September 1984.So around the time they would have been near to getting into the studio to record Low Life in Autumn that year.Be good if they have a better audio of that one or could clean up what exists and include it on a Low Life definitive box.The recording is around 11-12 minutes long and has some great ideas and melodies in places and that car screeching skidding noise they used on Perfect Kiss at gigs.First heard it a couple years ago when i obtained the file.Just a thought.

What's this track you're referring to here?




Send me a PM with an email adress and I can send it you via WeTransfer
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ROCKET MICK on 09/11/2020(UTC)
djrigby1969  
#44 Posted : 08 November 2020 09:50:57(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: M1 Go to Quoted Post
Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know)
Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88
Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion

And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.

Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.


Nothing says they have to release 4 singles alongside each box, especially when it knocks the timeline out of whack.

Substance will surely be released between Brotherhood and Technique, where it belongs. It's just as much canon as any of the studio albums, and that's where these new single remasters will see a CD release.


Steve said during the Q and A with Dave Haslam the other night that they were still wondering how to do Substance - with a possibility of expanding and updating it. He said though that it needs remastering so it looks like something will happen.
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Debaser on 08/11/2020(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 09/11/2020(UTC)
Debaser  
#45 Posted : 08 November 2020 10:18:16(UTC)
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Ah, thanks DJ Rigby.
I wasn't prepared to pay to watch an online book plug, but I did wonder if any good stuff came up, and if it would get mentioned here. I wonder if anyone recorded it.
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ROCKET MICK on 09/11/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#46 Posted : 08 November 2020 10:20:02(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: djrigby1969 Go to Quoted Post


Steve said during the Q and A with Dave Haslam the other night that they were still wondering how to do Substance - with a possibility of expanding and updating it. He said though that it needs remastering so it looks like something will happen.





There’s presumably not a whole lot to do with ‘Substance’ in respect of remastering with most of the tracks being remastered anyway for the various 12”s.
I guess the ‘new’ versions of Temptation and Confusion and the ‘exclusive’ edits (Hurt, TPK, SubCulture and Shellshock) will need to done.

Plus any tracks added to a possible expanded version.

Although I love ‘Substance’, as I’ve said before, I’m not sure it needs a full ‘Definitive’ set.
Of course, I’d still buy one if released, but I just don’t really see what would be included on both the DVDs and the book that wouldn’t already have been included in a ‘Definitive’ ‘Brotherhood’ set.

Just an expanded, remastered set would do for me.
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ROCKET MICK on 09/11/2020(UTC)
prog99  
#47 Posted : 08 November 2020 13:17:45(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post

Although I love ‘Substance’, as I’ve said before, I’m not sure it needs a full ‘Definitive’ set.

Substance was the gateway drug for me, I don't think it needs any tinkering, its perfect as it is.
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ROCKET MICK on 09/11/2020(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#48 Posted : 01 January 2021 06:17:34(UTC)
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The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?

Edited by user 01 January 2021 06:42:29(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Johnny James  
#49 Posted : 01 January 2021 22:33:24(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?


I could say that it's tentatively scheduled for Autumn, but that is so likely to shift. Who really knows.
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Fractured  
#50 Posted : 03 January 2021 10:53:24(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Johnny James Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?


I could say that it's tentatively scheduled for Autumn, but that is so likely to shift. Who really knows.



Thanks for all your work on these sets. A question: The music on the Definitive Editions is available as official, paid downloads, but what about the tracks left off for reasons of space that were available and in consideration?

For years I've favored tangible CDs and records over downloads, but having started an account at Qobuz to buy lossless music otherwise unavailable, I have to admit - it's not that bad.

Have there been any discussions along those lines?
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ROCKET MICK on 07/01/2021(UTC)
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