People do stupid things when they're young and drunk. It doesn't mean he's racist.

Odds on Hook trying to stir the shit, because he literally has nothing to offer anymore. Bitter old man.

Haha!!!!! I never thought about that!! Maybe hooky have crush on her. Omg lol. THAT would explain A LOT actually. Now that I think of it.

Even when I was a kid (and I'm 16 years younger than Barney / Hooky), everyone was interested in the War.

We used to play 'War' on the playground when we were 8 years old (much like my Dad's generation played 'Cowboys and Indians').
There were War films on TV every week in the 70s.
I even had a German stormtrooper Action Man, complete with stalk hand-grenades, round helmet, sidecar etc. (I also had a few British 'Tommy' Action Men too, to put things in perspective).

The point being, there was so much interest in the War around that time, you kind of couldn't escape it.
Sumner and Hook's generation would've grown up with fathers and mothers that vividly remembered the War; not necessarily doing service, but having to live through it.

Something as monumental as WWII, so close in living memory, was bound to be of interest to young men growing up in the 60s / 70s.

Couple that with 'Punk' and the want to rebel / shock, and it's no wonder that quite a few bands dubiously flirted a little with 'choice' imagery.
What better way to get up the adult generations' noses than to be seen to be 'supporting' ideals that their parents fought against?

As regards Ian, it's been 25 years since I read Debbie's book. I think there was some reference to one or two incidents, but nothing really sticks in my brain. If he was a massive racist, I think that would've been the image I took away after reading the book, which I didn't (at the time).

But, as I said, I really can't remember the incidents in question, so they were probably just 'slightly unsavoury' occurrences rather than something atrocious.
It's also only Ms Curtis' word to go on though. I'm not saying that she would lie about things, but things get misremembered all the time by people.

The other thing to bear in mind is how attitudes change over the years. I'm not wanting to defend any sort of racism, but you have to remember that casual racism proliferated society in the 70s. TV programmes like 'The Black & White Minstrel Show', 'Love Thy Neighbour', 'It Ain't Half Hot, Mum' etc. were on telly a lot.

It would be 'easier' for someone in the 70s to slip into saying something that we would find abhorrent by today's standards. Especially when people were being 'influenced' by the programmes listed above (among others) to find racism 'funny'.

Anyway, heavy stuff to be talking about on an internet forum.

You watch, now that I've 'kind of' defended Ian, someone's going to quote one of the things mentioned in Ms Curtis's book that I couldn't remember, and I'm going to find myself horrified at myself...

Edited by user 23 October 2019 10:58:11(UTC)  | Reason: Grammar etc.

Yes. I was thinking particularly of Starsky & Hutch myself. Anyone old enough to remember the TV show may have had a go at impersonating Huggy Bear at some point. Does that mean they're racist? Not necessarily, Huggy was cool! (wasn't he?). And there were those "Blaxploitation" films too. Impersonating someone from those films doesn't necessarily make you racist. Shaft was great (and why did everyone give the Samuel L Jackson reboot a hard time?).
But anyway, I agree with £50 Note's comment; only Steve can really answer the question.

Best show ever.

You're letting this worry you too much.

How many stupid names are bands stuck with because the "joke" name they picked caught on? I can think of several right off the bat, the most high profile one being Foo Fighters. Dave Grohl never intended for that to be the band's name.

I forget if it's in New Order Story (the 1994 documentary) or somewhere else, but Barney said something to the effect of "the name becomes [the band] after six months anyway." Gillian said she "thought it was just the new order of the group." They didn't put nearly as much thought into it as you're trying to read.

The phrase new order has been used countless times (at least stateside) with no nazi (or band) connotation. It’s very believeable. Go with Occams Razor here - the simplest explanation is probably the correct one.

Edited by user 29 October 2019 15:11:30(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

They'd been working with the likes of Quincy Jones and New York dance scene since early 80s, they would probably have noticed if Steve was racist. Don't think so.

Sunday Times, no?

(How nerdy am I?)


*Edit* See Hook's book Substance: the first page of the chapter called This Is New York (AKA p17 of the paperback).
Alternatively see this Guardian article (!) which mentions the Sunday Times (near the blue pic of Hook).

Edited by user 01 November 2019 16:09:29(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Remember the first time you were drunk? No.
I can't imagine Gillian heading a Nazi rally. 'Er yes, ha ha ha! Kill the Jews, er, yes, ha ha ha!'