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lentils  
#26 Posted : 03 November 2019 08:45:02(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Michael Monkhouse Go to Quoted Post
Remember the first time you were drunk? No.
I can't imagine Gillian heading a Nazi rally. 'Er yes, ha ha ha! Kill the Jews, er, yes, ha ha ha!'


LoL LoL
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Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC)
lentils  
#27 Posted : 03 November 2019 08:46:14(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic Go to Quoted Post
They got the idea for the name New Order from a headline in the Guardian newspaper .Something like "Hope for the new order of Kampuchean refugees" ?


Sunday Times, no?

(How nerdy am I?)


*Edit* See Hook's book Substance: the first page of the chapter called This Is New York (AKA p17 of the paperback).
Alternatively see this Guardian article (!) which mentions the Sunday Times (near the blue pic of Hook).


Ah ok.Sunday Times.


I've often wondered how easy it would be to track down this article. I wonder if the Times has an online archive.
If it was indeed the Sunday Times, it shouldn't be that onerous to check. There's presumably only a few Sundays that the article could've appeared in (between the Beach Club gig on 30/07/80, when they billed as the No-Names, and their first scheduled gig as New Order on 04/09/80). 5 x Sunday papers, by my reckoning.

This does depend though on the band remembering correctly (it could very easily have been, for instance, the Wednesday edition of the Guardian). Also, as the band were bandying names around for a while, they might have had the name ear-marked for a few months before adopting it. I guess it's safe to say that 25th May 1980 would be the earliest Sunday that they'd have seen the article.

Whenever I think of the band misremembering stuff, I'm reminded of two classic Barney things:

a) In Hooky's book he says that Sumner had no recollection of the song 'Procession' and got really uppity when Hook pressed him on it. Maybe he's trying to repress the memory of playing that song at Glasto '81 and the incident that happened. Big Grin

b) There was an interview with Steve and Bernard on BBC Breakfast around the release of 'Total' where Sumner was adamant that the band were never called Warsaw, despite the fact that they played 20+ gigs under that name. Steve looked incredulous. Funny stuff.



I've tried looking for it online and no luck. I've found things similar but not exactly, though.

Also, it says in most articles that it's from the Guardian. So, who knows.
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Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC)
lentils  
#28 Posted : 03 November 2019 08:50:06(UTC)
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Another thing is after all this controversy...why would they even dare use Das Rheingold by Wagner (who was anti-semitic and Hitler was a huge fan and used his stuff in propaganda and other things) for their recent show intros? Why do they keep doing it?? ?
And who's idea was it to even use that and the intro imagery accompanied with it? (Also Hitler linked.) Is there something I'm missing about that one? Nobody ever was able to answer that one for ages now.

Just cant see how they arent aware of that. Again, especially given how well versed Ian was in that while thing. And the history is pretty well known.
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Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC)
perspexorange  
#29 Posted : 03 November 2019 09:41:01(UTC)
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Well, maybe they weren’t aware of that connection.
I wasn’t, so maybe they weren’t.

I know very little about Wagner, so can’t really comment on what you’re saying. However, if you’re correct, maybe they should’ve done a bit of research.
But, that being said, it’s not like they’re coming out singing ‘Deutschland Uber Alles’. In other words, very few people going to the gig would recognise it as a ‘problematic’ piece of music.

I’m not being critical here, but I think you’re looking for dubious motives that aren’t necessarily there.

Edited by user 03 November 2019 10:00:20(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC)
lee  
#30 Posted : 03 November 2019 10:35:25(UTC)
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I think they should stop using wagner and the diving business too

Not because of any nazi connections but because its a crap way to start a gig....i miss the days of them just walking out and saying hello
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lentils on 03/11/2019(UTC), Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC)
lentils  
#31 Posted : 03 November 2019 11:26:22(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Well, maybe they weren’t aware of that connection.
I wasn’t, so maybe they weren’t.

I know very little about Wagner, so can’t really comment on what you’re saying. However, if you’re correct, maybe they should’ve done a bit of research.
But, that being said, it’s not like they’re coming out singing ‘Deutschland Uber Alles’. In other words, very few people going to the gig would recognise it as a ‘problematic’ piece of music.

I’m not being critical here, but I think you’re looking for dubious motives that aren’t necessarily there.


Yeah but it's used with the 1936 Germany olympics divers clip and album cover NOM with the diver from it that Hitler hosted. Was a huuuuuuge part of history and major historical event leading up to ww2. So..definitely are aware of the link there. It's just very poor taste and bizarre. If in an innocent artistic symbolic way..then okay ..just explain it. But it's just weird. No explanation to it.

Really always rubbed me the wrong way. The track itself is also samples in All Day Long, too and it's used in the Nosferatu film that Barney and Ian liked. So I thought maybe that's where the idea came from, but with the accompanied imagery and the very historical linkage to it and the music I was like..ugh. .

So I dunno. All weird.

I love the band. Just really irks me to even fathom any of them being a fan of any of that shit. Then it also doesn't help when Hooky-camp fans add to the Barney being a secret Nazi supporter stuff.

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Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC)
lentils  
#32 Posted : 03 November 2019 11:30:38(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: lee Go to Quoted Post
I think they should stop using wagner and the diving business too

Not because of any nazi connections but because its a crap way to start a gig....i miss the days of them just walking out and saying hello


I hear ya. I much more preferred the old days with the raw and spontaneous anything goes by them. Feels rather subdued the past few yrs. Yeah, hooky missing from the live shows has definitely made an effect and the energy seems half dead, but hookys behavior was becoming toxic and he wasnt happy and he and Barney were becoming a toxic mix together... so it was imminent. Just sad they cant work it the hell out. I mean, life's short and they're gonna end up regretting all this in their old age and looking back at it all. They're not getting any younger. It's rather depressing.

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Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC)
50poundnote  
#33 Posted : 03 November 2019 11:33:05(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: lentils Go to Quoted Post
why would they even dare use Das Rheingold by Wagner (who was anti-semitic and Hitler was a huge fan and used his stuff in propaganda and other things) for their recent show intros? Why do they keep doing it?? ?


Because they borrowed part of the arrangement for All Day Long?

Really, I'm sure your intentions are good, but you're trying too hard to find something that isn't there. If it bothers you so much you can always delete their music and stop listening to them.
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Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC), Ken Doherty on 06/11/2019(UTC)
perspexorange  
#34 Posted : 03 November 2019 11:47:41(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: lentils Go to Quoted Post
Then it also doesn't help when Hooky-camp fans add to the Barney being a secret Nazi supporter stuff.



Maybe I’m moving in different circles to you, but I’ve not heard any Hooky fans use this as ammunition. They always seem to just harp on about the formulaic nature of New Order’s set.

Again, I wasn’t aware that the divers were from the 1936 Olympics

I think the fact that no-one else seems to be mentioning this on the ‘net should reassure you somewhat that there’s nothing really in this.
Sure as eggs, if there was any real meat to this, the internet would be jumping all over it.

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Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC)
tarbox23  
#35 Posted : 04 November 2019 15:02:25(UTC)
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it is just the esthetic. just because hitler liked it doesn't make it evil.


ffs this thread must be the end of neworderonline.com

worst thread ever.

I BET THEY HAVE NAZI UNDERWEAR TOO!!!! CHECK THEM!!!!!!
Boston MA 86 | Great Woods MA 87-89-93 | Lake Compounce CT 89 | Meadowlands NJ 89 | NYC 05 + 12
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Benj65 on 05/11/2019(UTC), Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC)
tarbox23  
#36 Posted : 04 November 2019 15:03:28(UTC)
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omg hitler liked flowers... POWER CORRUPTION AND LIES IS NAZI PROPAGANDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Rocket Mick on 05/11/2019(UTC)
lentils  
#37 Posted : 05 November 2019 09:21:42(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: lentils Go to Quoted Post
Then it also doesn't help when Hooky-camp fans add to the Barney being a secret Nazi supporter stuff.



Maybe I’m moving in different circles to you, but I’ve not heard any Hooky fans use this as ammunition. They always seem to just harp on about the formulaic nature of New Order’s set.

Again, I wasn’t aware that the divers were from the 1936 Olympics

I think the fact that no-one else seems to be mentioning this on the ‘net should reassure you somewhat that there’s nothing really in this.
Sure as eggs, if there was any real meat to this, the internet would be jumping all over it.




Thing is, people have brought it up..on youtube. The woman who filmed the Olympics the Riefenstahl woman, was a nazi and did all those hitler propaganda films. And that's the clip new order use. And the nomc15 cover. And the song. That's why Bryan Ferry was under bigtime media scrutiny a few yrs back for praising the cinematography in that filming and her other works.
Just seems in very poor taste to do for a band that was so worried about others thinking they were nazi sympathizers. Given something so very blatant.
My theory is, it was Peter Saville's idea, though.

It's also briefly mentioned in Steve's book..about that Olympics. Not their live show thing, but back when he was a kid and something his dad said, regarding Jesse Owens.


Anyways.
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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
tarbox23  
#38 Posted : 05 November 2019 19:48:27(UTC)
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Are you serious? So referencing or alluding to anything from Germany from 1930-1945 makes you a Nazi Fascist Racist?

Someone likes the esthetics of a Panzer tank and it means they wish Jews were all put into concentration camps?

Are you insane?

Here, imagine watching some footage about Berlin in 1936 --- are you evil for watching this?

omfg

https://youtu.be/Es6f7K4c-y8



p.s. seriously, why this forum not let us embed youtube....
Boston MA 86 | Great Woods MA 87-89-93 | Lake Compounce CT 89 | Meadowlands NJ 89 | NYC 05 + 12
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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
Debaser  
#39 Posted : 06 November 2019 04:02:40(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: tarbox23 Go to Quoted Post


https://youtu.be/Es6f7K4c-y8

[size=10]p.s. seriously, why this forum not let us embed youtube....[/size]


It does. Why don't you remember me telling you (yes You!) how to do this? (reply #5)
amongst the many times I have told people on the forum

Edited by user 06 November 2019 04:07:16(UTC)  | Reason: I changed a 4 to a 5

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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
aysie  
#40 Posted : 06 November 2019 04:46:12(UTC)
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I'm not sure that the "Divers" intro footage is anything to do with the 1936 Olympics at all. I could be wrong, but I have a memory of reading in a couple of places that it's archive film of divers diving into Sydney Harbour - NO might even have first started using it during their Australian shows, with the orchestra. The first time I can recall anyone screaming "Leni Riefenstahl!" at it was in a Guardian review of the last Glastonbury show, and I have a feeling that was a kneejerk assumption, rather than based on any research or curious frame-by-frame memory of Triumph Of The Will. I've also always assumed the Wagner came from the group's love of the excellent Nosferatu soundtrack (Tangerine Dream, too) - feel free to try and tell Herzog he's a Nazi...
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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
lentils  
#41 Posted : 06 November 2019 06:01:32(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: aysie Go to Quoted Post
I'm not sure that the "Divers" intro footage is anything to do with the 1936 Olympics at all. I could be wrong, but I have a memory of reading in a couple of places that it's archive film of divers diving into Sydney Harbour - NO might even have first started using it during their Australian shows, with the orchestra. The first time I can recall anyone screaming "Leni Riefenstahl!" at it was in a Guardian review of the last Glastonbury show, and I have a feeling that was a kneejerk assumption, rather than based on any research or curious frame-by-frame memory of Triumph Of The Will. I've also always assumed the Wagner came from the group's love of the excellent Nosferatu soundtrack (Tangerine Dream, too) - feel free to try and tell Herzog he's a Nazi...


The divers clip is from the Leni 1936 Olympics film she made as part of nazi propaganda. it's in history books, people. And it is the actual footage. The entire thing was used AS nazi propaganda. it's even on youtube.

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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
aysie  
#42 Posted : 06 November 2019 08:25:25(UTC)
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Maybe it is - I'm just contributing what I recall reading somewhere. I know the Riefenstahl stuff (I even knew about that crap before YouTube existed), but I've not personally been able to match my memory of the NO clips with the Riefenstahl stuff on YT, although I do admit I've not spent much time looking. But she wasn't the only person filming divers in the 1930s and 1940s. For example, check this footage, filmed in Sydney at the Olympic pool, circa 1938:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYFirheEMM8

https://www.gettyimages..../594666971?adppopup=true
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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
aysie  
#43 Posted : 06 November 2019 08:33:52(UTC)
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PS - at least some of this Sydney footage is 100% definitely used in the NO montage
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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
lentils  
#44 Posted : 06 November 2019 09:05:32(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: aysie Go to Quoted Post
PS - at least some of this Sydney footage is 100% definitely used in the NO montage


Ahhh. Didnt know that. Thought it was all 1936. Or so it appeared. Looked identical.
Thanks for sharing this. Hmm, interesting.

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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
lentils  
#45 Posted : 06 November 2019 09:09:15(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: aysie Go to Quoted Post
I'm not sure that the "Divers" intro footage is anything to do with the 1936 Olympics at all. I could be wrong, but I have a memory of reading in a couple of places that it's archive film of divers diving into Sydney Harbour - NO might even have first started using it during their Australian shows, with the orchestra. The first time I can recall anyone screaming "Leni Riefenstahl!" at it was in a Guardian review of the last Glastonbury show, and I have a feeling that was a kneejerk assumption, rather than based on any research or curious frame-by-frame memory of Triumph Of The Will. I've also always assumed the Wagner came from the group's love of the excellent Nosferatu soundtrack (Tangerine Dream, too) - feel free to try and tell Herzog he's a Nazi...


If you can find where you read it's from Sydney, it would be greatly appreciated. would very much like to know it wasnt what I originally thought.

Thankyou for your input.


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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
aysie  
#46 Posted : 06 November 2019 09:17:27(UTC)
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I can't recall where I read it originally, sorry, but I searched and found some mention in reviews from those shows at the Sydney Opera House - the Sydney Harbour bridge is actually visible in the background in some sections of the footage in the montage, so I guess folks there would recognise it:

https://www.theguardian....r-a-moving-retrospective

https://rocknerd.co.uk/2...opera-house-june-4-2016/

https://tonedeaf.thebrag...orchestra-we-were-there/

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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
lentils  
#47 Posted : 06 November 2019 09:31:56(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: aysie Go to Quoted Post
I can't recall where I read it originally, sorry, but I searched and found some mention in reviews from those shows at the Sydney Opera House - the Sydney Harbour bridge is actually visible in the background in some sections of the footage in the montage, so I guess folks there would recognise it:

https://www.theguardian....r-a-moving-retrospective

https://rocknerd.co.uk/2...opera-house-june-4-2016/

https://tonedeaf.thebrag...orchestra-we-were-there/



Ahh!! Wow. I guess that's how it started then? During those Aussie shows and they just kept it I guess. Ohhhh. Interesting!! Had no idea. Well, I guess that explains that then.

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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
tapebias  
#48 Posted : 06 November 2019 11:45:08(UTC)
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Don't forget New Order's Jewish friends - Alan Wise, Arthur Baker, Ruth Polsky, Billy Joel etc. And also working with Quincy Jones doesn't seem the actions of nazis.

Edited by user 06 November 2019 11:46:53(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
aysie  
#49 Posted : 06 November 2019 12:52:38(UTC)
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Also, they played the Rock Against Racism gigs both as Joy Division and New Order...Bernard's work with DoJo...fans of dub reggae...and on...and on...and on...
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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
50poundnote  
#50 Posted : 06 November 2019 16:21:01(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: tapebias Go to Quoted Post
Billy Joel


I've never heard about this - what's their connection to Billy Joel?
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Rocket Mick on 14/11/2019(UTC)
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