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Andy  
#51 Posted : 03 January 2021 11:54:17(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fractured Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Johnny James Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?


I could say that it's tentatively scheduled for Autumn, but that is so likely to shift. Who really knows.



Thanks for all your work on these sets. A question: The music on the Definitive Editions is available as official, paid downloads, but what about the tracks left off for reasons of space that were available and in consideration?

For years I've favored tangible CDs and records over downloads, but having started an account at Qobuz to buy lossless music otherwise unavailable, I have to admit - it's not that bad.

Have there been any discussions along those lines?



There appears to be much debate between concerned parties over what should/shouldn't be included in the sets. To add another layer of approval would probably delay the process.
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ROCKET MICK on 07/01/2021(UTC)
Fractured  
#52 Posted : 03 January 2021 12:46:35(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andy Go to Quoted Post



There appears to be much debate between concerned parties over what should/shouldn't be included in the sets. To add another layer of approval would probably delay the process.


But I believe the delays were due to the limits of fitting material on the single CD of bonus tracks, thus keeping the sets within a certain production budget. By releasing everything via paid download sites there is no manufacturing cost involved.

If the Definitive box sets remain a matter of careful negotiation between all parties, perhaps that can't be changed. But since the music exists, and because releasing it for sale affords the band certain copyright protections, there is every advantage to making it available.

For example, for the Movement era, sell lossless versions of:

-Complete Western Works and Cargo demos (One mix of "Dreams Never End" was omitted).

-"Haystack" with Kevin Hewitt.

-All takes from the "Ceremony" sessions and leftover demos omitted from the Definitive edition.

-All sides/versions from the "Ceremony," "Procession," and "Everything's Gone Green" singles (To include both the trio and quartet recordings of "Ceremony," both mixes of "In a Lonely Place," 7" edits of both tracks, and 7" and 12" versions of "EGG" plus "Procession," "Cries and Whispers," and "Mesh").

-1981 Peel Session including any outtakes.

-Movement.


For Power, Corruption and Lies:

-All music recorded for The Hacienda ("Prime/Video 5-8-6," "Rocking Carol," "Ode to Joy").

-All three outtakes of "Temptation," the alternate 12" version on the Collector's Edition, and 7" and 12" versions of "Temptation," "Hurt," "Blue Monday," and The Beach."

-1982 Peel Session including all outtakes and rough mixes.

-Writing session recordings of "Thieves," "Murder," and "Blue Monday"

-Both instrumental outtakes of "B.M."

-"Blue Monday" multitracks (Currently floating around online - by including them the public is afforded a view into the band's creative process, the song is given pride of place, and new DJs have the component parts to do their own mixes), all demos/takes, and promo/video edit.

-All mixes of "Confusion."

-All three versions of "Song One" ("Thieves Like Us") unedited, all released versions of "Thieves," "Murder," and "Lonesome Tonight" including 7" edits, instrumentals, and the version of "Murder" with the count-in from the Collector's Edition.

-Power, Corruption and Lies.


Some of this material is available for lossless download already. By making it all available, the band can truly give an accurate picture of its creative evolution.

Edited by user 03 January 2021 13:15:52(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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negative1 on 03/01/2021(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 07/01/2021(UTC)
Andy  
#53 Posted : 03 January 2021 13:12:42(UTC)
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I like the idea, I'm just saying not everyone concerned probably shares the belief that there is value in releasing absolutely everything.
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ROCKET MICK on 07/01/2021(UTC)
50poundnote  
#54 Posted : 03 January 2021 13:24:09(UTC)
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No band is going to release absolutely everything. Some things remain unheard for a reason, and the glut of material degrades the listening experience of a carefully curated box.
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Andy on 03/01/2021(UTC), murphmanz on 04/01/2021(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 07/01/2021(UTC)
Fractured  
#55 Posted : 03 January 2021 13:31:35(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andy Go to Quoted Post
I like the idea, I'm just saying not everyone concerned probably shares the belief that there is value in releasing absolutely everything.


Absolutely! But there's a track record of success for what I'm proposing, given what we've seen from archival releases from everyone from Iggy and the Stooges and The Monkees to Bob Dylan. The quality of New Order's music, and its historical importance, justify a complete collection - via lossless digital or physical media.

It's a beautiful journey, and every step is worth taking.
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ROCKET MICK on 07/01/2021(UTC)
Fractured  
#56 Posted : 03 January 2021 14:02:08(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
No band is going to release absolutely everything. Some things remain unheard for a reason, and the glut of material degrades the listening experience of a carefully curated box.


And we still would have those curated collections in the various best of/singles releases, Retro, the Collector's Editions, and the Definitive Editions. But for those of us who want to hear the evolution of the material, and historians who want to understand how it is created, offer everything available.

Even if the band opted for issuing the stuff on compact disc, which would be my preference, we're not talking about all that much. For example, for Low-Life we're talking perhaps two CDs' worth of demos and rough mixes, as well as the "Sunrise" instrumental version and edit already released on compilations? Add another CD for all mixes/edits of "The Perfect Kiss" and "Sub-culture." The album itself is a fifth disc.

Imagine a similar amount of unreleased material for Brotherhood, plus a CD to collect all mixes of "Shellshock," "State of the Nation," and "BLT." The album becomes a fourth disc. If we factor in "Salvation," its known outtakes/demos, the alternate version of the title track previously released, and the edits/mixes of "Touched by the Hand of God," that's a fifth disc.

There are rough mixes of "Blue Monday 1988" known to exist. Add all of the available mixes and edits and you probably have a very full sixth CD.

With Technique imagine three CDs worth of sessions, roughs, and instrumentals, to include the demos/sessions sold on eBay. "Fine Time," "Round & Round," and "Run 2" (including the Warner Bros. tapes we've heard about) plus "The Happy One" and "Intermede Musical" No.s 1 - 6 could fit across two discs. The album becomes a sixth CD. Again, very feasible in physical form.

A wildcard: Do the recordings made for TV shows like "Making Out" (which inspired "Vanishing Point" and other material) and "World in Action" exist in the band's archive? Those are important pieces of the puzzle.

But at the very least, make it all available in lossless quality for purchase and download.

Edited by user 03 January 2021 14:05:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 07/01/2021(UTC)
Qif586  
#57 Posted : 03 February 2021 08:21:30(UTC)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
Did the BBC film the whole of the (first) set at Hacienda,December 85? That Whistle Test thing. Has to be on the box if it exists.




Quote:
Sadly, Johnny James confirmed that the BBC stopped filming part way through the third track.
It’s a real shame because it looked like an awesome gig. That version of ‘Sunrise’ is one of my favourite live renditions.
Quote:



Also, by far my favourite live version of 'As it is and when it was". Barney absolutely nails the crescendo near the end!

Edited by user 03 February 2021 08:24:33(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#58 Posted : 03 February 2021 08:33:21(UTC)
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Huh? Most of those compilations were bollocks, especially Retro, which included World and Alan Wiseprick but not TLU.
There's far too much material out there for a consistent box set. If you have that level of passion, you can find it all on YouTube.
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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
perspexorange  
#59 Posted : 03 February 2021 08:45:30(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Qif586 Go to Quoted Post


Also, by far my favourite live version of 'As it is and when it was". Barney absolutely nails the crescendo near the end!


Yep - it's excellent.

I can't wait for this set. Here's hoping that we don't have to wait too long.
I appreciate the amount of work that goes into these sets and the fact that they don't want to release them too quickly (which could impact sales).
However, as far as I'm concerned, I'd be happy with a new set every week. Big Grin

As I mentioned on another thread, Hooky recently stated that he'd unearthed an even longer version of 'Elegia'. I'm really hoping that makes the cut and appears on this set.


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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
negative1  
#60 Posted : 03 February 2021 10:00:53(UTC)
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my wallet would appreciate if this came out next year, or maybe the year after that.

but its done whenever its done. better to have quality product than something rushed.

i would like a lot more demos and less live material though.

later
-1
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Mr. Disco on 03/02/2021(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
perspexorange  
#61 Posted : 03 February 2021 10:23:08(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post

i would like a lot more demos and less live material though.

later
-1


Although I'm always keen to hear demos, I'm definitely the opposite to you.
They can't put enough live video in these sets, as far as I'm concerned.
The video included so far has been incredible. Hurrah's, Haçienda, Kilkenny and especially, Peppermint Lounge was just fantastic. A band in their prime.

As regards demos, I wonder just how much good quality usable stuff there is out there.

If it's as good as the demos on the 'Movement' set, bring it on. However, although I liked the 'writing sessions' included on 'PC&L' (and I was very glad they were on there), I thought they were much less interesting than the 'Movement' ones. Possibly due to the lack of vocals. I've listened to the 'Movement' ones numerous times, but far less so the 'PC&L' ones (although I like that LP better).

Similarly, we've heard quite a few demos of 'Technique'. Although these are interesting, they're mainly just the band noodling away. If the 'demo' material is mostly like this for the next few LPs, it might be difficult legitimately pulling together more than one disc's worth of stuff.

What I'm saying is, I'd be extremely happy with two or three discs of high quality, really interesting demos. But I'd be less likely to want to listen to the same number of discs if it was purely Hooky playing along to backing tracks, trying to come up with a bassline.

I think, in the case of demos (or, indeed, live material), quality must win out over quantity.
I have faith in the compilers that they'll produce another brilliant set worthy of the band's legacy.


I'm definitely hoping that we get a version of 'Let's Go' on this set. Preferably a vocal version.
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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
negative1  
#62 Posted : 03 February 2021 10:35:19(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post

i would like a lot more demos and less live material though.

later
-1


Although I'm always keen to hear demos, I'm definitely the opposite to you.
They can't put enough live video in these sets, as far as I'm concerned.
The video included so far has been incredible. Hurrah's, Haçienda, Kilkenny and especially, Peppermint Lounge was just fantastic. A band in their prime.

As regards demos, I wonder just how much good quality usable stuff there is out there.



there's hundreds of bootlegs of live recordings, and plenty of soundboards too, so that's why, i could care less
about live recorings, i can listen to tons of high quality ones already, and they're just taking up space in the sets.

sure, the videos are rare, but those are the one and done ones for me. i just rip the audio and listen to those if
i want to hear them. watching them over and over is not something that i do.




Quote:

If it's as good as the demos on the 'Movement' set, bring it on. However, although I liked the 'writing sessions' included on 'PC&L' (and I was very glad they were on there), I thought they were much less interesting than the 'Movement' ones. Possibly due to the lack of vocals. I've listened to the 'Movement' ones numerous times, but far less so the 'PC&L' ones (although I like that LP better).

Similarly, we've heard quite a few demos of 'Technique'. Although these are interesting, they're mainly just the band noodling away. If the 'demo' material is mostly like this for the next few LPs, it might be difficult legitimately pulling together more than one disc's worth of stuff.

What I'm saying is, I'd be extremely happy with two or three discs of high quality, really interesting demos. But I'd be less likely to want to listen to the same number of discs if it was purely Hooky playing along to backing tracks, trying to come up with a bassline.

I think, in the case of demos (or, indeed, live material), quality must win out over quantity.
I have faith in the compilers that they'll produce another brilliant set worthy of the band's legacy.


I'm definitely hoping that we get a version of 'Let's Go' on this set. Preferably a vocal version.



well from what they've put there's no end to the amount of demos and sessions. the more the better.


later
-1

Edited by user 03 February 2021 10:36:41(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
perspexorange  
#63 Posted : 03 February 2021 11:10:36(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post

there's hundreds of bootlegs of live recordings...



Yep, but they're all different...

I know that can also be the case with demos, and I'm not arguing that we shouldn't hear these.

But if there are five different demos of 'Sub-Culture' out there, I don't think we desperately need to hear these if they're only marginally different.
If they're very different, yeah, let's hear them.
I think there's an argument that, if you put too much of the same stuff on a set, it runs the risk of becoming of less interest to a lot of people. In my opinion, it would just detract from the listening pleasure, wading through things too similar. Your mileage may vary, though.


Apart from taxonomy purposes (and I love a bit of that as much as anyone; see some of my posts Big Grin ), I don't see much merit in having four versions of one track, with differences being things as minor as 'slightly louder guitar' or 'more echoey vocals'.

Unless substantially different, one or two demos of each track is fine by me.

It's not just demos though.
Similarly, when they're filling up the DVDs with 'bonus video footage' (rather than complete gigs), I wouldn't expect that they'd include five different live versions of 'Sub-Culture', all from the 1985 tour. Although they'd likely be fairly different (given the band's penchant for 'improvisation'), it'd make for a fairly dull experience, listening to the same track over and over again.

Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post


well from what they've put there's no end to the amount of demos and sessions. the more the better.


I can't imagine there's tonnes of 'quality' stuff out there, unless you know differently. I'd be very happy to be proved wrong though.
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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#64 Posted : 03 February 2021 11:15:44(UTC)
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I agree with the Orange. A glut of similar demos wouldn't appeal to most people, and anyway, we've got bootlegs and YouTube for that. I have a Beatles bootleg featuring Cilla Black going through Step Outside Love with Paul's assistance again and again, followed by TWENTY ONE attempts at Cum and Get It. Fine for obsessives like me, but...

Edited by user 03 February 2021 11:16:40(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Mr. Disco  
#65 Posted : 03 February 2021 15:58:23(UTC)
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I also enjoy the demos pretty much. My guesses for the DVD(s) would be BBC's Saturday Live '84 and Leuven '85, the latter being recently "remastered" for official streaming on Amazon, no?
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negative1 on 03/02/2021(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Fotz  
#66 Posted : 03 February 2021 16:26:09(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Disco Go to Quoted Post
I also enjoy the demos pretty much. My guesses for the DVD(s) would be BBC's Saturday Live '84 and Leuven '85, the latter being recently "remastered" for official streaming on Amazon, no?

Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!

I enjoyed the demos on the Movement box immensely more than the ones on the PC&L box though the TLU ones are great.
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negative1 on 03/02/2021(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Mr. Disco  
#67 Posted : 03 February 2021 16:35:51(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!

Check it out:

https://www.amazon.com/N...er-Rox-Box/dp/B07YYQKVSR

Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
I enjoyed the demos on the Movement box immensely more than the ones on the PC&L box though the TLU ones are great.

The Movement ones are way better indeed Nod

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Fotz on 03/02/2021(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Fotz  
#68 Posted : 03 February 2021 17:05:41(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Disco Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!

Check it out:

https://www.amazon.com/N...er-Rox-Box/dp/B07YYQKVSR





Wow, never knew that.However, i have a feeling it's not available in UK? I have a one month free Amazon Prime right now but that link takes me to a page stating i'd have to have an American billing address for Stingray Qello or something.No entry for me.
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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Mr. Disco  
#69 Posted : 03 February 2021 17:13:26(UTC)
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It's not available on my region as well... but I'm pretty confident we'll have it in the Low-Life box

[Edit] I sincerely hope they don't put PFD there, just like they did with the 2nd Peel Session.

Edited by user 03 February 2021 17:19:38(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Fotz on 03/02/2021(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
perspexorange  
#70 Posted : 03 February 2021 23:40:14(UTC)
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I may be in the minority here, but I’m kind of hoping for a different gig than Leuven.

It’s actually one of my absolute favourites, but I’ve seen it a lot (especially in recent months since appearing on Qello etc.).

So, I guess, I think I’d rather see a different gig.
That being said, I wouldn’t be disappointed if it was included and would totally understand it’s inclusion. It’s a classic gig after all.
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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
GotBlueEyes  
#71 Posted : 04 February 2021 03:00:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Disco Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!

Check it out:

https://www.amazon.com/N...er-Rox-Box/dp/B07YYQKVSR





Wow, never knew that.However, i have a feeling it's not available in UK? I have a one month free Amazon Prime right now but that link takes me to a page stating i'd have to have an American billing address for Stingray Qello or something.No entry for me.


I was getting that too in the UK, but his link seems to take you to a Qello free trial sign-up page that accepts UK£

https://www.amazon.co.uk...instant-video&sr=1-1





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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
markreed  
#72 Posted : 19 February 2021 05:15:47(UTC)
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I sincerely hope they do include PFD on there, as as far as I can remember, its only been officially released on DVD in Japan and NZ/Aus. My DVD of it also has a crack in, and I don't fancy tracking down a 20 year old pop music DVD only released in three countries if I can help it.

Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.

Audio : hopefully we can get the rough mix of "Sunrise", one of the "Perfect Kiss" rehearsals (I think the VHS/DVD, 12", and 2008 bonus disc have different takes on, if you listen to the ending), one of the longer Razormaid mixes of "Subculture" as its got different Hooky bass on, and tbh, lots of demos. I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.

There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.
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ROCKET MICK on 24/02/2021(UTC)
perspexorange  
#73 Posted : 19 February 2021 06:16:20(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post
I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.


This. Totally.
I couldn't agree more.

Even if the quality isn't the best on all the tracks, I'd still love to see them.
Put the 'best' on the box sets. Put the 'rest' on YouTube, a few weeks after each set is released (so as not to impact sales).

Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post

Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.



I'd love to see the full Toronto gig. That footage on the Glasgow DVD, and especially that TPK footage on YouTube is stunning.

Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post
I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.


I'm pretty sure 'Let's Go' was demoed as it was due to be on 'Low Life' before being substituted for The Perfect Kiss. I suspect that the 'Waiting For So Long' vocal version is from the 'Low Life' sessions.

Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post

There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.


Again, I totally agree.
Of course, the completist in me would like everything that's in the archive. However, realistically, the set has to be limited to a set number of discs. There's little to no point in filling these with a huge number of demos that are practically the same. If, indeed, a wealth of demo material exists, which I doubt.

Hopefully, though, there's at least one demo for each track on the LP, plus ones of any other appropriate tracks (Let's Go, Shellshock etc.).



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ROCKET MICK on 24/02/2021(UTC)
markreed  
#74 Posted : 19 February 2021 09:48:56(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post
I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.


This. Totally.
I couldn't agree more.

Even if the quality isn't the best on all the tracks, I'd still love to see them.
Put the 'best' on the box sets. Put the 'rest' on YouTube, a few weeks after each set is released (so as not to impact sales).

Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post

Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.



I'd love to see the full Toronto gig. That footage on the Glasgow DVD, and especially that TPK footage on YouTube is stunning.

Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post
I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.


I'm pretty sure 'Let's Go' was demoed as it was due to be on 'Low Life' before being substituted for The Perfect Kiss. I suspect that the 'Waiting For So Long' vocal version is from the 'Low Life' sessions.

Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post

There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.


Again, I totally agree.
Of course, the completist in me would like everything that's in the archive. However, realistically, the set has to be limited to a set number of discs. There's little to no point in filling these with a huge number of demos that are practically the same. If, indeed, a wealth of demo material exists, which I doubt.

Hopefully, though, there's at least one demo for each track on the LP, plus ones of any other appropriate tracks (Let's Go, Shellshock etc.).





It gets a bit tricky around "Shame Of The Nation" and the demo of "As It Is, When It Was" as both (technically) appear in some form on the Brotherhood CD, but were recorded for a provisional Japan-only EP around the time of the May 1985 tour. The A-side version of "State" is, I think, a complete re-recording from 1986. I tried putting Shame/State together in extended form, and the sonics are so different it was unlistenable.

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ROCKET MICK on 24/02/2021(UTC)
perspexorange  
#75 Posted : 19 February 2021 10:31:31(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: markreed Go to Quoted Post


It gets a bit tricky around "Shame Of The Nation" and the demo of "As It Is, When It Was" as both (technically) appear in some form on the Brotherhood CD, but were recorded for a provisional Japan-only EP around the time of the May 1985 tour. The A-side version of "State" is, I think, a complete re-recording from 1986. I tried putting Shame/State together in extended form, and the sonics are so different it was unlistenable.




Hmm, I have a vague memory of talking about this before with someone, but can't remember who I was talking to or what we determined.
It was possibly on this forum or by email. Wish I could remember.

So, there were at least two tracks to be included on this EP ('AIIWIW' and 'Shame')? So 'Shame' was recorded at a different point to 'State'?
Is there a demo lurking around of 'Shame'?

Any idea what the other tracks on the EP may have been ('Let's Go' possibly)?

Skullcrusher / Solitude is certainly from that era, live-wise at least (first played 31/03/84)
Weirdo too (first played 16/07/85)

There's also Love Juice Wink. First played live 23/05/85

Edited by user 19 February 2021 10:40:46(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 24/02/2021(UTC)
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