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50 Pound Note  
#1 Posted : 27 June 2019 08:01:47(UTC)
50 Pound Note

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Perspexorange proposed a question for New Order "What’s the reason for the Sub-Culture single not receiving a proper sleeve?"

The given answer is that Saville didn't like the remix and didn't want to design a sleeve. I forget where I heard this initially, although I think it was sometime around the reveal of Waiting For The Sirens' Call cover, and how controversial that was with a big orange NO on the front. But as was pointed out, Saville often designed the sleeves without hearing the music. Sometimes he didn't even know the title. So this may be a dubious or revisionist answer.

My thoughts are that he *did* design a proper sleeve, we just don't perceive it as such.

1. As stated in his book, if you follow art history through Saville's sleeve designs, everything prior to 1985 was looking back. He considers the Low-life era the start of 20th century design in his work. The Perfect Kiss utilizes all the elements of modern printing: a grey (silver) sleeve, with cyan, magenta, yellow, or black inner sleeves - CYMK being the necessary colors to create all other colors in printing. Low-life itself uses four individual portraits of the band members, with four alternate portraits used in the cassette versions. Using a photo again for the cover of Sub-Culture would detract from the other work, so he reduced it down to the two most basic elements - black and white.

2. New Order was still considered an indie band, but trying to make serious inroads to dance music culture. Most club DJs are used a 12" in a plain black or white die-cut sleeve. The simple black sleeve for Sub-Culture harkens back to the black die-cut sleeve for Blue Monday, which was their biggest success on the dance floor up to that point - although it's fair to point out Sub-Culture was printed on higher quality stock than a standard issue die-cut sleeve. It's a bit glossy, which makes it stand out. That's a deliberate design choice. The black and white label also gives it the feel of a promo 12", and club DJs love to be the first to play anything. So I think it was designed to make it look a bit like a promo to try and gain traction among DJs.

This is also a very Saville progression: all of the elements necessary for full color present (but not utilized as such) on The Perfect Kiss, band portraits on Low-life, black and white on Sub-Culture. He made it so simple that we don't even think of it as design, but taken in context of the other releases from 1985, it fits.
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perspexorange  
#2 Posted : 27 June 2019 14:21:31(UTC)
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This is a pretty interesting theory and I like the idea that Saville did put some effort into his design decision.

This seems logical considering the care put into the typography, which I think is rather nice.

I definitely agree that it is possibly ‘revisionist’ of Saville to say that certain sleeves were done without effort. Maybe certain sleeve ideas just ‘didn’t work’ like he wanted them to, and made the story fit the reaction.

I like your theory about Low Life and the accompanying sleeves. It certainly makes sense that the minimal ‘Sub-Culture’ sleeve kind of fits with other sleeves of the period.
It makes you wonder if, for instance, Saville had been doing this style of sleeve around the ‘Substance’ / ‘True Faith’ / ‘TBTHOG’ period instead of ‘Low Life’, whether one of those releases may have got the design that ‘Sub-Culture’ got.

If so, and if ‘True Faith’ had got the ‘SC’ design (and your theory is correct), I’m guessing people may have ‘understood’ this design decision (based on the strength of ‘True Faith’ / ‘1963’, which couldn’t have been ‘hated’ by Saville).

Interesting theory, anyway.

Edited by user 27 June 2019 14:24:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Fotzepolitic  
#3 Posted : 28 June 2019 09:28:03(UTC)
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Think the story about Saville not doing the sleeve had been around for years, long before WFTSC.

Yeah you may have a point £50, about it was actually designed. Makes sense.
50 Pound Note  
#4 Posted : 28 June 2019 10:50:00(UTC)
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Sub-Culture is also the first single pulled from an album (as opposed to being released alongside one, or as a stand-alone single). The black and white design suggested "this is a part of Low-life, not its own thing."
Fotzepolitic  
#5 Posted : 29 June 2019 03:43:52(UTC)
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I remember first hearing the 12" remix on John Peel's show one night a week or two before it was released.Listened on headphones and at the end of the 6 minutes or so i felt like i'd been battered from pillar to post.God, what a mess was my first reaction.And what's with all those newly added backing vocals? It all sounded completely chaotic, and not in a good way.
50poundnote  
#6 Posted : 29 June 2019 05:58:17(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic Go to Quoted Post
I remember first hearing the 12" remix on John Peel's show one night a week or two before it was released.Listened on headphones and at the end of the 6 minutes or so i felt like i'd been battered from pillar to post.God, what a mess was my first reaction.And what's with all those newly added backing vocals? It all sounded completely chaotic, and not in a good way.


The night before Pumped Full Of Drugs was filmed, NO also played that hall in Tokyo. Sub-Culture is the second song, and the sequencer starts at the wrong time. It has that screwed up, off-kilter baseline that ended up in the remix.

I think the current live version, which uses elements from both the original arrangement and the remix, is the best its ever sounded.
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Fotzepolitic on 29/06/2019(UTC)
negative1  
#7 Posted : 29 June 2019 07:13:03(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 50 Pound Note Go to Quoted Post
Sub-Culture is also the first single pulled from an album (as opposed to being released alongside one, or as a stand-alone single). The black and white design suggested "this is a part of Low-life, not its own thing."


why is 'the perfect kiss' not the first. it was from the album, was it actually released may 13,
the same day as the album. in the US, the 12 inch came out first.

also, i don't buy the blank cover theory. i think he just didn't get any ideas in time for the release,
and was just able to work out the typography for it.

the uk 7 inch label, die cut sleeve:
UserPostedImage

the uk 12 inch label, die cut sleeve:
UserPostedImage

the us 12 inch label, die cut sleeve:
UserPostedImage

also with a sticker:
UserPostedImage

the japanese 12 inch with obi:
UserPostedImage


the italian 12 inch label, die cut sleeve:
UserPostedImage

the spanish 12 inch label, die cut sleeve:
UserPostedImage

the german 12 inch label, die cut sleeve:
UserPostedImage

the canadian 12 inch cover with sticker, die cut sleeve, and label:
UserPostedImage

looks like the promo labels:
UserPostedImage

the australian 12 inch has the same die cut sleeve, with the white label, and this sticker:
UserPostedImage

the new zealand 12 inch label with poor print quality:
UserPostedImage


later
-1

Edited by user 29 June 2019 07:17:28(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Fotzepolitic  
#8 Posted : 29 June 2019 08:37:26(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 50 Pound Note Go to Quoted Post
Sub-Culture is also the first single pulled from an album (as opposed to being released alongside one, or as a stand-alone single). The black and white design suggested "this is a part of Low-life, not its own thing."


why is 'the perfect kiss' not the first. it was from the album, was it actually released may 13,
the same day as the album. in the US, the 12 inch came out first.



In UK TPK and Low-Life were released on the same day, 13.05.85.Is that classed as "alongside", or "pulled" ? I don't know.
50poundnote  
#9 Posted : 29 June 2019 11:16:09(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic Go to Quoted Post
In UK TPK and Low-Life were released on the same day, 13.05.85.Is that classed as "alongside", or "pulled" ? I don't know.


Personally, I class that as "alongside", because you had to buy the 12" to get the full version. They hadn't intended to include an edit on the album.
is it bro  
#10 Posted : 29 June 2019 15:10:28(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic Go to Quoted Post
In UK TPK and Low-Life were released on the same day, 13.05.85.Is that classed as "alongside", or "pulled" ? I don't know.


Personally, I class that as "alongside", because you had to buy the 12" to get the full version. They hadn't intended to include an edit on the album.


Do you mean they made an error and the 12 inch TPK version should have made the album or that the track (in any version) was meant to be omitted altogether?

Andy  
#11 Posted : 30 June 2019 01:21:25(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: is it bro Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic Go to Quoted Post
In UK TPK and Low-Life were released on the same day, 13.05.85.Is that classed as "alongside", or "pulled" ? I don't know.


Personally, I class that as "alongside", because you had to buy the 12" to get the full version. They hadn't intended to include an edit on the album.


Do you mean they made an error and the 12 inch TPK version should have made the album or that the track (in any version) was meant to be omitted altogether?



I suspect As it is When it Was would have been the track that The Perfect Kiss supplanted. It had been showing up in their live sets along with the other Low-Life tracks over the previous months.
Johnny James  
#12 Posted : 30 June 2019 04:09:49(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: is it bro Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 50poundnote Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic Go to Quoted Post
In UK TPK and Low-Life were released on the same day, 13.05.85.Is that classed as "alongside", or "pulled" ? I don't know.


Personally, I class that as "alongside", because you had to buy the 12" to get the full version. They hadn't intended to include an edit on the album.


Do you mean they made an error and the 12 inch TPK version should have made the album or that the track (in any version) was meant to be omitted altogether?



I suspect As it is When it Was would have been the track that The Perfect Kiss supplanted. It had been showing up in their live sets along with the other Low-Life tracks over the previous months.


No, it was Let's Go.
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Andy on 30/06/2019(UTC)
perspexorange  
#13 Posted : 30 June 2019 08:33:42(UTC)
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Man, I wish 'Let's Go' had been included.

However much I love 'The Perfect Kiss', I'm sure I'm not alone in not much liking the album version. It's just a neutered animal, in my opinion.
Far better to have left it as a 'single only' release and let us bask in the glory of the full 12", without that limp LP version appearing on various compilation LPs, radio shows, playlists etc.

'Let's Go' is also, of course, bloody brilliant and should've got a 'proper' release.

If they had've included it, I wonder if the band were planning on a) keeping the track order (i.e. 'Let's Go' to be nestled in between 'Love Vigilantes' and 'This Time Of Night') and b) whether they were planning on including the track as an instrumental or as a fully-formed vocal version.

50poundnote  
#14 Posted : 30 June 2019 08:38:20(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Johnny James Go to Quoted Post
No, it was Let's Go.


I've always had a sneaking suspicion that Let's Go was left off because it's musically very similar to Sooner Than You Think, and they opted to go with the one utilizing more electronics. I hope we get the finished version intended for the album in the Low-life box!
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