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Ken Doherty  
#1 Posted : 17 August 2017 04:50:43(UTC)
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The New Order version, released 30 years ago today, according to Mr. Hooks Facebook
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Deceiver  
#2 Posted : 17 August 2017 04:57:00(UTC)
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The only singles compilation I like listening to...
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perspexorange  
#3 Posted : 17 August 2017 06:04:59(UTC)
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Best. Compilation. Ever.

Just wish they hadn't had to edit TPK, Sub-culture, Shellshock and Hurt (actually the edit of Sub-culture existed already on one of the single releases, but still).

I made a playlist some years back with the full 12"s and the original versions of Ceremony, Temptation and Confusion. Then, as I felt I couldn't live without them, added the re-recorded versions of said tracks to the end, as bonus tracks.
Probably my most listened to playlist ever.
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ROCKET MICK on 21/08/2017(UTC)
Mr Discography  
#4 Posted : 17 August 2017 07:00:06(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Best. Compilation. Ever.

Just wish they hadn't had to edit TPK, Sub-culture, Shellshock and Hurt (actually the edit of Sub-culture existed already on one of the single releases, but still).


Still my favourite album after all these years. After being aware of Blue Monday, True Faith and buying the 7" of Touched, this was my proper introduction to the band when I bought it on tape as a 13 year old whilst on holiday in 1988 on the Isle of Wight. Tend to only play the whole thing whilst on holiday even now, as it always captures that mood. In fact, I put 'Ceremony' on the jukebox in a Penzance pub where I'm currently on holiday just last night!

I actually think that as an album it benefits from having the re-recorded Temptation and Confusion, as well as the shorter Shellshock, Sub-culture and Hurt, as the original 12" versions meandered along quite a bit. Agree they should have put the full Perfect Kiss on there though, as the section edited out is one of the finest parts of the track (didn't the unedited full length Perfect Kiss appear on the original Substance double vinyl though)? If it's ever remastered and re-released, the CD should mirror the vinyl tracklisting and include the unabridged Perfect Kiss, but retain the other edits/re-recordings.

Don't recall the Substance edit of Sub-culture being released at the time of the single. There was a Benelux edited remix on 7" at about the same length but it was a different cut - where do you reckon the Substance edit was released?

Edited by user 17 August 2017 07:06:25(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Music Complete  
#5 Posted : 17 August 2017 08:10:13(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Agree they should have put the full Perfect Kiss on there though, as the section edited out is one of the finest parts of the track (didn't the unedited full length Perfect Kiss appear on the original Substance double vinyl though)?


Yes, vinyl and cassette versions of Substance have the full version.

Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Don't recall the Substance edit of Sub-culture being released at the time of the single.


It wasn't - the edit on Substance is unique to that album.

Tracks were edited because at the time only 72 minutes of music could be put on one CD.

4:23 - Ceremony
5:20 - Everything's Gone Green
6:59 - Temptation '87
7:28 - Blue Monday
4:43 - Confusion '87
6:38 - Thieves Like Us
8:50 - The Perfect Kiss (full remix)
7:28 - Subculture (full remix)
9:45 - Shellshock (full remix)
6:33 - State of The Nation
6:44 - Bizarre Love Triangle
5:55 - True Faith
___________________________
80:46 - total, too long to fit on a single CD

You could argue that it should have been a 3xCD set, but that defeats the purpose of Tony Wilson wanting to be able to listen to all their singles on one CD in his car (how Substance came to be). And, in 1987, CDs hadn't dominated the market yet. Consumers balked at the expense of a double CD (and Factory probably didn't have the funds for it anyway).
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Mr Discography  
#6 Posted : 17 August 2017 08:42:09(UTC)
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My original Factory and Centredate cassettes of Substance also have the edited Perfect Kiss. Don't know of any cassette versions that have the full version.
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ROCKET MICK on 21/08/2017(UTC)
perspexorange  
#7 Posted : 17 August 2017 10:05:01(UTC)
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Hmm. Now you've got me thinking. Originally, I always thought that the Substance edit of Sub-culture was unique to Substance (like the other edits on it), but in the last couple of years, I somehow became aware of the version on this release:

https://www.discogs.com/...b-Culture/release/505855

Not sure where I read it, but I had heard that that version was the one they used on Substance.

So, is the above version different from the one on Substance?
If so, I'd quite like a listen if someone can help me out.

Ta.
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ROCKET MICK on 17/08/2017(UTC)
negative1  
#8 Posted : 17 August 2017 11:47:33(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Hmm. Now you've got me thinking. Originally, I always thought that the Substance edit of Sub-culture was unique to Substance (like the other edits on it), but in the last couple of years, I somehow became aware of the version on this release:

https://www.discogs.com/...b-Culture/release/505855

Not sure where I read it, but I had heard that that version was the one they used on Substance.

So, is the above version different from the one on Substance?
If so, I'd quite like a listen if someone can help me out.

Ta.



i have it,

sub-culture (remix edit) 4:57 v
sub-culture (substance) 4:48 v, cd, dt


it's slightly different..


as far as substance goes,
the cassette version was cooler, because it had a lot of the b-sides...

of course the DAT version was the coolest to collect, but it still had the same versions...

later
-1

Edited by user 17 August 2017 11:57:39(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Fotzepolitic  
#9 Posted : 17 August 2017 12:50:35(UTC)
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Substance was ok but up til then I was used to New Order releasing new songs, new singles & albums and all the excitement and interest that brought.Substance was the beginning of endless reissues and greatest hits albums when I would and will always prefer new material. Substance and greatest hits albums don't stimulate my mind. Sorry!
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ROCKET MICK on 18/08/2017(UTC)
is it bro  
#10 Posted : 17 August 2017 12:59:22(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Best. Compilation. Ever.

Just wish they hadn't had to edit TPK, Sub-culture, Shellshock and Hurt (actually the edit of Sub-culture existed already on one of the single releases, but still).


Still my favourite album after all these years. After being aware of Blue Monday, True Faith and buying the 7" of Touched, this was my proper introduction to the band when I bought it on tape as a 13 year old whilst on holiday in 1988 on the Isle of Wight. Tend to only play the whole thing whilst on holiday even now, as it always captures that mood. In fact, I put 'Ceremony' on the jukebox in a Penzance pub where I'm currently on holiday just last night!

I actually think that as an album it benefits from having the re-recorded Temptation and Confusion, as well as the shorter Shellshock, Sub-culture and Hurt, as the original 12" versions meandered along quite a bit. Agree they should have put the full Perfect Kiss on there though, as the section edited out is one of the finest parts of the track (didn't the unedited full length Perfect Kiss appear on the original Substance double vinyl though)? If it's ever remastered and re-released, the CD should mirror the vinyl tracklisting and include the unabridged Perfect Kiss, but retain the other edits/re-recordings.

Don't recall the Substance edit of Sub-culture being released at the time of the single. There was a Benelux edited remix on 7" at about the same length but it was a different cut - where do you reckon the Substance edit was released?


I totally agree. I can't stand the original Ceremony as it's so tiny and the production is piss poor. Same for Original Temptation (plus Barney plays a bad chord throughout the chorus which ruins the listening).

The 87 versions of temptation and confusion are a million times better and more fitting with the quality of the other songs mixing and production values.


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ROCKET MICK on 18/08/2017(UTC)
steinomite  
#11 Posted : 17 August 2017 13:28:58(UTC)
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Happy Birthday Substance!!! Of the many compilations that New Order has released since then, it remains the only one worth owning.

Over the years, I've becoming accustomed to its minor revisioning. My only qualm is still "Confusion." Perhaps I am in the minority on that one, but the original version has that original NYC electro hip-hop edge - think "Planet Rock" or "Al-Naafiysh (The Soul)." The original is very much of its time, the birth of electro, but yet still sounds timeless today. The 1987 version just sounds like a dated late 80s synth-pop cover thereof. This of course just my opinion!

-Mike
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ROCKET MICK on 18/08/2017(UTC)
Debaser  
#12 Posted : 17 August 2017 13:50:16(UTC)
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Shouldn't this say happy THIRTIETH birthday? Or does no one want to say that bit 'cause it makes them feel really old?

Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post
as far as substance goes,
the cassette version was cooler, because it had a lot of the b-sides...


I think the CD had the B-sides too.

Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic Go to Quoted Post
Substance was ok but up til then I was used to New Order releasing new songs, new singles & albums and all the excitement and interest that brought.Substance was the beginning of endless reissues and greatest hits albums when I would and will always prefer new material.



For some of us Substance was new material! When I was a very small boy I bought my first ever 12" single, it was BM. Not a bad choice eh? But I was oblivious to the singles prior to BM. I bought PCL, Low Life & Brotherhood, but as there was no internet back then and I lived in Ireland where record shops didn't stock much Factory product, I had never heard the first three tracks on Substance until...I bought Substance.

So for me, and I think for many others this was a real gateway to some fantastic tracks that we had simply never heard. Cause hey, they weren't on any studio album!
So Substance will always have a special place in my heart. It felt like a massive "completion" excercise re: the singles, and a joyous introduction to some incredible music. It's not a coincidence that Hooky called his JD book Unknown Pleasures and his NO book Substance (complete with the Substance font on the original hard cover). They are the albums best known to the broader public for each band. Even though one of them is a compilation.
But it's not just any old compliation, it's the best band compilation in the history of...ever!!


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ROCKET MICK on 18/08/2017(UTC)
Music Complete  
#13 Posted : 17 August 2017 13:55:24(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Go to Quoted Post
My original Factory and Centredate cassettes of Substance also have the edited Perfect Kiss. Don't know of any cassette versions that have the full version.


I could swear my UK double cassette has the complete version same as the vinyl, because in 1987 I would get confused when jumping from cassette to CD that part of the song was missing. Wikipedia agrees with me, but the various cassette versions on Discogs don't all list running times. I'll have to cue them up and check.

I have more copies of Substance than any record in my library:

Limited LP for Factory employees - numbered edition of 2,000 (mine is #7-something-something)
Factory LP with embossed lettering
Factory LP standard
US LP with embossed lettering
Bootleg repress (using CD edits) on blue and yellow vinyl, with True Faith Remix artwork on the cover
Factory white cassette box
Factory double cassette in red/blue slipcase
US single cassette
Factory CD fatbox
US CD fatbox

Edited by user 17 August 2017 13:59:57(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 18/08/2017(UTC)
perspexorange  
#14 Posted : 17 August 2017 14:11:11(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post
Shouldn't this say happy THIRTIETH birthday? Or does no one want to say that bit 'cause it makes them feel really old?

Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post
as far as substance goes,
the cassette version was cooler, because it had a lot of the b-sides...


I think the CD had the B-sides too.

Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic Go to Quoted Post
Substance was ok but up til then I was used to New Order releasing new songs, new singles & albums and all the excitement and interest that brought.Substance was the beginning of endless reissues and greatest hits albums when I would and will always prefer new material.



For some of us Substance was new material! When I was a very small boy I bought my first ever 12" single, it was BM. Not a bad choice eh? But I was oblivious to the singles prior to BM. I bought PCL, Low Life & Brotherhood, but as there was no internet back then and I lived in Ireland where record shops didn't stock much Factory product, I had never heard the first three tracks on Substance until...I bought Substance.

So for me, and I think for many others this was a real gateway to some fantastic tracks that we had simply never heard. Cause hey, they weren't on any studio album!
So Substance will always have a special place in my heart. It felt like a massive "completion" excercise re: the singles, and a joyous introduction to some incredible music. It's not a coincidence that Hooky called his JD book Unknown Pleasures and his NO book Substance (complete with the Substance font on the original hard cover). They are the albums best known to the broader public for each band. Even though one of them is a compilation.
But it's not just any old compliation, it's the best band compilation in the history of...ever!!




Well said that man! Was my first real intro to the band too!
A brilliant compilation.
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ROCKET MICK on 18/08/2017(UTC)
Fotzepolitic  
#15 Posted : 17 August 2017 14:12:20(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post
Shouldn't this say happy THIRTIETH birthday? Or does no one want to say that bit 'cause it makes them feel really old?

Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post
as far as substance goes,
the cassette version was cooler, because it had a lot of the b-sides...


I think the CD had the B-sides too.

Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic Go to Quoted Post
Substance was ok but up til then I was used to New Order releasing new songs, new singles & albums and all the excitement and interest that brought.Substance was the beginning of endless reissues and greatest hits albums when I would and will always prefer new material.



For some of us Substance was new material! When I was a very small boy I bought my first ever 12" single, it was BM. Not a bad choice eh? But I was oblivious to the singles prior to BM. I bought PCL, Low Life & Brotherhood, but as there was no internet back then and I lived in Ireland where record shops didn't stock much Factory product, I had never heard the first three tracks on Substance until...I bought Substance.

So for me, and I think for many others this was a real gateway to some fantastic tracks that we had simply never heard. Cause hey, they weren't on any studio album!
So Substance will always have a special place in my heart. It felt like a massive "completion" excercise re: the singles, and a joyous introduction to some incredible music. It's not a coincidence that Hooky called his JD book Unknown Pleasures and his NO book Substance (complete with the Substance font on the original hard cover). They are the albums best known to the broader public for each band. Even though one of them is a compilation.
But it's not just any old compliation, it's the best band compilation in the history of...ever!!




Ah fair enough. I got into New Order around 1983/1984 and early 1984 was my completion phase of buying up all the early 1981/82 singles that I hadn't heard like EGG, Ceremony, Temptation and the Factus 8 ep thing so the songs had been rattling around in my veins for 3+ years before Substance.

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ROCKET MICK on 18/08/2017(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#16 Posted : 18 August 2017 02:54:14(UTC)
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'Substance' aimed to compile all their 12" singles, but the track allocation was quite random. In fact, if you compare how the songs were spread across UK / US vinyl / cassette / CD formats, you should get out more.
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ROCKET MICK on 18/08/2017(UTC)
negative1  
#17 Posted : 18 August 2017 07:34:35(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post
Shouldn't this say happy THIRTIETH birthday? Or does no one want to say that bit 'cause it makes them feel really old?

Originally Posted by: negative1 Go to Quoted Post
as far as substance goes,
the cassette version was cooler, because it had a lot of the b-sides...


I think the CD had the B-sides too.



yes, but its missing 3 of the tracks.

later
-1

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ROCKET MICK on 18/08/2017(UTC)
Rorschach  
#18 Posted : 18 August 2017 07:43:54(UTC)
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Having heard True Faith on the jukebox in the common room, I had to get more of this previously undiscovered band 'New Order' & substance hit the spot so very sweetly.

A perfect educational intro, it changed my life musically & was swiftly followed by every NO album as I could afford them and then all JD too.

My first copy was the double cassette from Play Inn in Eccles but some cnut quickly nicked the 'A' tape from my mate's car (along with his stereo) so it was CDs all the way after that.
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ROCKET MICK on 18/08/2017(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#19 Posted : 19 August 2017 03:45:17(UTC)
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JD and NO's Substance at least had a point in that they were bringing together material that had become hard to find in that pre-digital age. The London stuff was bollocks, with 'NO International' and 'Best of JD 2008' as the real time-wasters. I know I've said this before, but when Steve was asked to go through the 'entire' NO catalogue, he included Substance but none of London's cash -ns. His bank manager probably knows more about them than he does.
With a crazy 28 tracks, the cassette represented far better value than the CD (24) and rip-off vinyl (12) - but paradoxically, it was harder to listen to. I always thought Sub would've been better with just the 'proper' B-sides, so no dub filler and - even better - room for full-length A-sides instead of the edits. The product wouldn't've looked so cool though. (Well I don't always think that. Sometimes I think other things too.)

Edited by user 19 August 2017 03:49:39(UTC)  | Reason: NO specified

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ROCKET MICK on 21/08/2017(UTC)
Fotzepolitic  
#20 Posted : 20 August 2017 12:16:50(UTC)
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For years I never played the The Perfect Kiss on the vinyl edition of Substance because I assumed it was the same shortened edit that is on the CD edition .Someone on here, maybe Debaser, brought to my attention not so long back, maybe last year that the version on the vinyl Substance is the original full 12" version which I was gobsmacked to learn.

Also have just remembered that I think I'd never heard the version of Ceremony that is on Substance til I bought the album on its release.That was another reason I wasn't a massive fan of Substance, I don't like the 2nd recording of Ceremony, the version on Substance.I think I'm the only person that prefers and had always preferred the first version ,and had only ever listened to that version (the first version of Ceremony ,the no Gillian version , gold sleeve 7", green sleeve 12") Everyone seems to prefer the second version but that's an argument as old as time.

Edited by user 20 August 2017 17:51:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Michael Monkhouse  
#21 Posted : 23 August 2017 23:37:41(UTC)
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I much prefer the first Ceremony. I assume they included the second one cos it had the full line-up and it was 'cleaner'.
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ROCKET MICK on 24/08/2017(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#22 Posted : 25 August 2017 05:54:42(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Debaser Go to Quoted Post



For some of us Substance was new material!


Like the albino with diarrhea, fair do's. As per my last piste, the Factory compilations - Substance 87, Substance 88, even Still - were worthwhile in that they were making it easier to find stuff. When I first heard Substance, I only 'knew' BM (that shitty 88 7" compromise), TLU (a crappy radio edit that lost all the lush intro) and TF (its equally crappy 7" compromise). The endless spew of pointless, bollock-riddled, please-buy-the-same-songs-86256087608546753869-times-cos-there's-a-remix-that-has-Fairground-Attraction-to-do-with-the-original-except-one-token-line-AWESOME shite started with London and True Faith 94 (arguably Spooky, given the band weren't even speaking to each other). With a strong single, an award-winnning vid and its ensuing compilation LP, 1987 was far more of a breakthrough than the one-off BM and London's make-the-Spice-Girls-look-like-Salinger approach.
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ROCKET MICK on 25/08/2017(UTC)
NotAMod  
#23 Posted : 25 August 2017 10:42:46(UTC)
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The double DAT is one of my favourite items in my NOJD collection even though a) I've never unsealed it and b) I have no DAT deck to play it on. Still, lovely to have.

Actually come to think of it I do have The Gatefold Substance tucked away as well but can't remember what number it is... I seem to remember it's quite high.

Brilliant compilation and long overdue some sort of box-set treatment. I keep expecting it to pop up on Super Deluxe Edition soon especially as the JD one has already had it's reissue moment in the sun.
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ROCKET MICK on 26/08/2017(UTC)
Fotzepolitic  
#24 Posted : 25 August 2017 12:32:44(UTC)
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Well, maybe if Substance gets a reissue /deluxe super edition it might make me look at it in a more positive light and listen to it more.I always felt a bit that them releasing Substance in 1987 was a quick an easy way of gaining back some ground and success/sales/reputation as it seemed Brotherhood hadn't been an overwhelming critical or commercial success on its release just under a year before.Dunno.

Think New Order played in full the whole of Substance in track order (not the b sides though!) at one of the USA gigs in August or September 1987 if i recall.

Edited by user 25 August 2017 12:36:34(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 26/08/2017(UTC)
Debaser  
#25 Posted : 25 August 2017 13:15:20(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Michael Monkhouse Go to Quoted Post
Like the albino with diarrhea, fair do's.

Are...are you sure? Have you Gillian McKeith'd this shit?
thanks 1 user thanked Debaser for this useful post.
ROCKET MICK on 26/08/2017(UTC)
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