Lot 323

https://bid.omegaauction...;pp=50&pn=7&g=-1

Regret ('Regret')
Techno One / Tech 2 ('World')
Big Chord ('Ruined In A Day')
Spooky One ('Spooky')
New Guitar One ('Everyone Everywhere')
Identify ('Young Offender')
Everyone Everywhere ('Liar')
Techno 2 ('Chemical')
Oboe One ('Times Change')
Chemical ('Special')
Classical One ('Avalanche')

More to follow...

Lot 398

https://bid.omegaauction...;pp=50&pn=8&g=-1

Just a couple on here:

Guitary-Westerny One
Love Grows (again!)

I'm guessing these are from 'Low Life'.
It might mean I was a little 'off' with my earlier thinking that 'Love Grows' was 'Love Vigilantes', as 'Guitary-Westerny One' seems more apt.



Anyway, thought it might be fun to speculate.

I'd welcome anyone else's thoughts.
And perhaps Johnny James' might provide some insider input too

Edited by user 04 September 2021 03:02:56(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

My thoughts were that Spaghetti Western was probably 'Sunrise' too. Mainly due to the length.
I'm thinking 'Melodic One' is possibly 'Sub-Culture'.

It could definitely be 'Quit'. Well deciphered!

Looking at it, it appears that the title has a '1' at the end, i.e. 'Quit West 1'.


I've just noticed that Age Of Consent II appears to be 'Way Of Life' (you can see the former name hidden under the correct name on one of the images), so have amended my post.


I've tried to amend one of comments on the WFTSC post above, but it gets rejected as spam.
It should read:
'I Told You So', 'Jetstream' and 'Shake It Up are presumably one of either 'Rocky Chorus', 'Ragga', 'Spinoff' or 'Friction' as these are missing from the first list.

Many thanks for this JJ!

I'm thinking Elegia II / Son of Elegia must be 'Every Little Counts.
On this image 'All Day Long' and 'Elegia II' are both listed. 'Every Little Counts' is the only one missing:



9 x LP tracks, plus 'State Of The Nation'.

You don't get this level of dedication on the Facebook groups!

I would bet money that Ragga = I Told You So.

Fair point(s). I remember in Smash Hits a "spokesman" for the group said State Of The Nation "could be about Japanese prostitutes on the bullet train".
And indeed during Tim's twitter listening parties, it was made clear that Elegia took an idea from A Few Dollars More - the tinkly "pocketwatch" music (as well as Blue Monday of course - twangy guitar for the Hooky bass).

Good points both.

Elegia is very Morricone.

I’ve always thought ‘Face Up’ was pretty ‘Japanesey’. Not sure why. Certain elements just sound like they’re from the ‘Far East’ to me.

I recall reading that it was called ‘The Japanese One’ somewhere, possibly here:

https://www.new-order.ne.../facs/workingtitles.html

It mentions that bootleggers used that title, so maybe I first heard that title from one of the many bootleg LPs that I used to browse through at record fairs. I guess, in this case, the bootlegger knew something we didn’t and got the title correct.

And, yeah, NOOL is so much better than the Facebook groups. They’re just full of ‘what’s your favourite song’ posts.
It’s just a shame we don’t get more people posting here these days (I think we may have a fair amount of people who ‘view but don’t post’ though, so the boards aren’t dead yet, thankfully).

Can vouch for some of them, e.g. Japanesey One is Face Up.
This'll keep you busy https://m.imgur.com/zWAQY0J

I've probably mentioned this several times before, but over the years, I've compiled a list of working titles used by the band.
I know we've discussed these at various points on these forums before (most recently on the 'Peter Hook Has Something To Say' thread).

For each 'working title', I've to try to corroborate with various official sources such as press cuttings, books (including images of tapes from the Definitive Edition books) and Johnny James' invaluable confirmations on these boards.
I've not only listed 'official' working titles but have also identified when a bootlegger has guessed a title and used it on a bootleg LP.

I still have a few though that I can't trace the source for and wondered if anyone had any info (including speculation) on these.
If anyone can shed any light on these, I'd be most grateful. Perhaps you remember an interview that mentioned the working title. Or, perhaps, you have a bootleg that uses the working title. Maybe you've seen an image of a setlist or master tape with the alternate title listed.
Any information gratefully received.


1) The Him > The Hymn
I've seen reference to this actually having a working title of 'The Hymn'. Is this correct?
Considering the two words (Him/Hymn) are homonyms, I'm wondering if it's just a case of someone hearing the name and assuming that the title of the track is 'The Hymn', as the 'The Him' doesn't really make much sense grammatically.
If you have any examples (bootlegs, images etc.) of when 'The Hymn' has been used, I'd be interested to hear about these.

2) Temptation > Taboo No. 7
According to Michael Johnson's 'An Ideal For Living', this was a working title. However, I don't think I've ever seen it stated as such in any other place? Johnson's book contains some errors, so I just wanted some other evidence of this.
I perhaps need to consult Dec Hickey's book - he might reference this.

3) Blue Monday > The Beach
Apparently, Blue Monday was originally called 'The Beach'. Any truth to this?
Obviously, the b-side used this title and the lyrics refer to this title, but I'd be interesting in any evidence that points to the song ever using this.

4) Sunrise > Twenty-Four Hours Part II
This seems sketchy that this was ever a working title. It seems more likely that, prior to the LP coming out, a bootlegger or fan was trying to think of a title and they felt that the song sounded a bit like the JD classic.
Anybody seen a bootleg or any official source refer to this track in this way?

5) Sooner Than You Think > Aleph > Meaning Of Life > Family Affair
Multiple names used here.

The one most referred to is 'Aleph', which was used on the 'Dreams Are Over' bootleg of the Brixton 1983 gig (where the track debuted).
But has the band ever admitted to this name being used?

'Meaning Of Life' has been used, according to some sources on bootleg tapes, possibly of the Vaulkhaus '84 gig, which was broadcast on Swiss radio.
I've not seen this myself though.

'Family Affair' - no idea where this has come from. I've just seen it on a list here https://www.new-order.ne...facs/workingtitles.html.

6) As It Is When It Was > Things We Do
Again, no idea where this came from. It was on the same list as above https://www.new-order.ne...facs/workingtitles.html.



That's about it for now.

PS Forgive me if I've asked these questions before. My memory is really fading as I get older.

WARNING: TRAINSPOTTER TERRITORY!

OK, here we go, the timeline of 'Sooner Than You Think' lyrics:

01/12/83 The Academy, Brixton, UK
The debut of the song, which was called 'Aleph' on the setlist (as per Steve Morris on Twitter 30/04/20).
This is mainly an instrumental, but does contain made-up 'on the spot' lyrics to approximately 1.5 verses.
Some of these scant lyrics repeat the lines 'Meaning Of Life' (presumably why some bootleg copies of this tape label it with this name).

02/04/84 Volkshaus, Zurich, Switzerland
The first proper vocal version, although this is definitely Bernard (again) making up lyrics on the spot.
It contains various lyrics about Switzerland being beautiful, comparing it to England and about a party/fight in a hotel. It also starts with the ‘Hello everyone, it’s nice to be here…’ line.
There’s also a line about being a ‘thousand miles from here” that sticks around for some months.

02/04/84 DR3-FM
Radio broadcast of above gig. Apparently, this was broadcast 'live' on the day.

10/04/84 Saga Cinema, Copenhaga, Denmark
Again, made-up lyrics, but completely different to above Zurich lyrics.
The lyrics appear to be mainly in a 'love song' style including a repeated line of “oh, I know I love you".

15/08/84 Mayfair Suite, Sunderland, UK
Ok, so this is where it gets interesting, with common elements being used.
A lot of the lyrics revert back to the Zurich ones, starting with ‘Hello everyone… etc.’, mentioning the party and Switzerland. Some words are basically exactly the same as the Zurich version, which pretty much points to the fact that Bernard must’ve heard a tape of the gig. But it also adds a few more that would eventually make it to the LP version.
It also retains some of the lyrics (albeit in a slightly altered format) from the Copenhagen gig (“oh, you know we love you… yes we do”).

16/08/84 City Hall, Hull, UK
Basically similar to Sunderland (unsurprising, considering it was the next day)

19/08/84 Leisure Centre, Gloucester, UK
Basically the same lyrics and format.

22/08/24 Golddiggers, Cheltenham, UK
Some slight variation here, with certain choruses changing ("yes you do” rather than “yes we do”), foreshadowing the LP version.
This is the first mention of cheaper drinks in England.
Also, Bernard seems to have dropped naming “Switzerland” and now lists it as “your country”, again mirroring the final version.

23/08/84 Cornwall Colosseum, St Austell, UK
Pretty much the same basic lyrics as Cheltenham for the first two verses, but the third verse is very different with a load of lyrics about the ‘difference in countries’ which are difficult to make out. There’s a tonne of other of lyrics in this bit, which sounds like Bernard is making shit up again and over-running on what should be considered the proper length for the verse.
Also, this is the version that introduces the “you know what we do is so unkind” bit and this is pretty much identical to the final version.

25/08/84 ‘Rock Around The Clock, BBC Studios, London
REALLY interesting here.
The lyrics, only two days on from Cornwall, are basically exactly the same as the released LP version. Very, very little difference. It doesn’t sound like Bernard is ‘making it up’ as he goes along, so I presume he ‘nailed down’ the lyrics over the last day or two. Maybe he did it in that 'nightmare' car journey from Cornwall to London.

27/08/84 Heaven Ultradisco, London, UK
Basically the same as the BBC one above.
Presumably, all other versions after this point follow the same lyrics (give or take a few Sumner flourishes).
Lyrics are fully formed, ready for the LP to be recorded in October-December 1984.


So, to summarise:

a) Song is debuted as ‘Aleph’ at Brixton on 01/12/83. This is basically an instrumental with a handful of ‘scratch’ lyrics.

b) Song’s second outing at Zurich on 02/04/84 has full lyrics, but these are made-up on the spot and detail Bernard’s experiences of Switzerland.

c) Song’s third outing at Copenhagen has completely different made-up lyrics.

d) Song’s fourth outing at Sunderland on 15/08/84 reverts back to the lyrics about the Switzerland experiences.

e) Song continues to evolve throughout August with it reaching it’s final form, lyrically, at the BBC performance on 25/08/84.



What conclusions can we draw from all this?:

1) Some time between Copenhagen on 10/04/84 and Sunderland on 15/08/84, Bernard must’ve heard the Zurich tape; possibly someone supplied him with a copy of the radio broadcast or he heard the soundboard tape. He then decided to run with those ’Switzerland’ lyrics.

2) Lyrics evolved rapidly during August and especially between 23-25/08/84. Presumably over these two days, Bernard finalised the lyrics.

3) I have WAYYYYYY too much time on my hands.



Incidentally, I guess this exercise has helped me to determine where the ‘working title’ of ‘Meaning of Life’ for STYT came from. It probably isn’t a ‘working title’; it’s probably just what some fan called it on a bootleg based on the sparse lyrics in the Brixton ‘Aleph’ version.

Also, if you made it this far without nodding off, well done!