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perspexorange  
#76 Posted : 24 December 2020 12:19:33(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Michael Monkhouse Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, it's shocking. It's shocking that the brains behind Tasty Fish can be considered one of the world's greatest drummers. Utter crud.


I have no idea whether this is meant to be a 'slight' on Tasty Fish or Steve's drumming. Maybe both.

It's true what they say, Comedy is hard. Especially when people haven't a clue at what one is trying to get at. Wink
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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC), Ken Doherty on 10/01/2021(UTC)
Cranelane  
#77 Posted : 24 December 2020 12:49:21(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
Just finished the book.
A great read and (obviously) highly recommended.


The whole 1992-2007 period was a painful (but interesting) read though. It must have been a pretty horrible time for him, going from one upsetting moment to the next.

I was impressed that, although he was critical of other band members to a certain degree, he was very much measured in his assessments. There were a few 'yeah, he pissed me off at times', but was countered with things like 'I reckon I must have been pretty annoying myself'. Steve also points out that, to be working that closely with individuals for so long, you're bound to find things that annoy you about them. It's only natural.

I'm just glad (and not at all surprised) that he resisted the temptation to lay into one particular member. In fact, he was generally understanding of that person's problems with the band dynamic. Although he admits that he rarely took sides, and tried to see both sides to arguments.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but Steve did seem to be a little critical of the band's management, Andy Robinson particularly. There are a few incidents where it appears that he felt that Andy wasn't very supportive.

There were a couple of really disheartening band decisions that shocked and slightly upset me.

Firstly, as Fotz mentions above, that 'Big Day Out' incident is really uncomfortable reading.
Rather than go along with Steve's wishes to not travel that far away from home (which, given his daughter's serious illness, seemed reasonable), Bernard and Hooky pretty callously suggested "no problem, we'll just get another drummer". Management agreed ("Problem solved").

Steve said that this incident made him feel 'easily replaceable' and must have made him feel like he wasn't really part of the band (they'd replaced Gillian; they could just as easily replace him). Pretty horrible really. And not the way to treat a founder member.

Secondly, during 'Republic', Stephen Hague had got a session drummer in to play the 'real drums' on the LP. This was a revelation and, again, is pretty shoddy treatment. Steve went along with it, rather than upset anyone.
Not only is this bad behaviour (this time from Hague, rather than Bernard & Hooky), it's almost unbelievable.
They got a session drummer in to replace arguably one of the finest drummers in rock music?! Madness.


Again, Bernard and Hooky probably should've been more supportive of Steve.

It's been said many times before but, had Rob been around, I'm sure that a lot of the problems could've been avoided.


That revelation comes as a shock tbh. Very shoddy treatment of someone whose talent was so pivotal to the band's success right from the beginning as Joy Division through to their most innovative period, which gave them the song that cemented their place in musical history, a tune he played a major part in the composition of.

I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet as I refuse to take the easy option of buying it on Amazon and am waiting until I see it for sale in a local bookshop, having recently read his first book I am seriously looking forward to it. Steve and Gillian must have the patience of saints to deal with the other two bickering prima donnas!

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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
The Shadow  
#78 Posted : 24 December 2020 12:55:42(UTC)
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Yeah, it's shocking. It's shocking that the brains behind Tasty Fish can be considered one of the world's greatest drummers. Utter crud.

I have no idea whether this is meant to be a 'slight' on Tasty Fish or Steve's drumming. Maybe both.

It's true what they say, Comedy is hard. Especially when people haven't a clue at what one is trying to get at. Wink


Well whatever it is Stephen Morris IS one of the greatest drummers, and personally my favourite drummer. He can not only hit them drums better than anyone else he completely ,embraced technology and is a major factor and some of the best music ever made either via drumming, programming, synth playing or just general ideas and attitude. I’ve had the good fortune of meeting him and he is a very interesting and musically very knowledgable. A true gentleman. Of course no one should be above criticism and these are just my personal views, but he’s definitely one of my favourite people in music and his book only reinforces this.

Edited by user 24 December 2020 12:57:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC), Ken Doherty on 05/02/2021(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#79 Posted : 24 December 2020 13:07:50(UTC)
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The other two are total and utter fucking shit. Whenever people go on about Steve, they refer to an album he made in 1979 and that was all about Martin Hannett and Ian.
The hilarious thing about drummers is that I'm a Beatles obsessive and when people ripped the shit out of Ringo... for years I said I can't comment technically but I love it when the drums kick in on the first two White Album tracks. I later discovered that was Paul playing cos Ringo had left in a huff. So for all those years I'd been defending Paul as the Beatles' drummer.
Oh yeah, happy fucking Christmas.

Edited by user 24 December 2020 13:10:30(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
Cranelane  
#80 Posted : 24 December 2020 13:17:19(UTC)
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The ironic aspect to all this is that the drumming on Republic is pretty pedestrian.







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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#81 Posted : 24 December 2020 13:27:52(UTC)
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My favourite singer is Alanis Morissette but I can never remember a single lyric. Isn't it ironic? Don't you think?
Republic is total and utter shit too. He should be relieved to be discarded. Mind you, I think all music is total and utter shit except The Beatles, the Sex Pistols and the Spice Girls.

Edited by user 24 December 2020 13:28:31(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#82 Posted : 24 December 2020 13:30:49(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Michael Monkhouse Go to Quoted Post
Whenever people go on about Steve, they refer to an album he made in 1979 and that was all about Martin Hannett and Ian.


Let's not forget 'Age Of Consent', 'Murder' and the countless other brilliant 'real' and 'programmed' drums that the man, no... god, committed to vinyl.

No Hannett involved in those cases, yet still lauded as magnificent.


Oh, and Happy Christmas to you too. :-)
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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
Cranelane  
#83 Posted : 24 December 2020 13:40:40(UTC)
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Listen to any New Order live bootlegs and the one musician who never messes up is Steve, he keeps the other three in line. I was watching an interview from 1989 the other day where Barney is complaining that learning to play a musical instrument is boring, he's partly taking the p*** but at the same time I can't help but thinking that the effort of practicing is kind of worth it.

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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
Fotz  
#84 Posted : 24 December 2020 14:14:57(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Cranelane Go to Quoted Post
Listen to any New Order live bootlegs and the one musician who never messes up is Steve,



Yep. Absolutely.Totally agree.Steve is the one that held many of NO's 80s gig together when everything else was going to shit.

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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#85 Posted : 24 December 2020 15:01:21(UTC)
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You mean the MTV special? I remember that.
And let's not forget the towering achievements of the other two. Thirty years to come up with Night Voice, around Liar leading up to Working Overtime. How does he do it? What's his secret? I guess we'll never know.
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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#86 Posted : 24 December 2020 15:33:28(UTC)
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I don’t really get your point, Michael.

Also “Thirty years to come up with Night Voice”?
You’re not making any sense?

You seem to be harping on about The Other Two as if that project is acknowledged as Steve’s crowning achievement; the thing that defines him as an artist, rather than something the two of them did in their spare time whilst B&H couldn’t be arsed with New Order.

No one (fans, press or S&G themselves) are saying that it was the finest work they ever created. It was purely a vehicle for the two of them to release soundtracks that they’d been working on during ‘down time’.

There’s plenty of great stuff in the JD/NO canon that’s far more worthy of your attention.

It’s like me saying that Paul McCartney is a talentless shit, just because ‘Biker Like An Icon’ sucked big donkey balls. Whilst at the same time completely dismissing ‘Yesterday’, ‘Eleanor Rigby’, ‘Hey Jude’ etc.

(Incidentally, I’ve always found The Beatles somewhat overrated. Perhaps I should head over to their forums, to mock Macca and his shit side projects.)
Wings... only the band The Beatles could’ve been.
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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#87 Posted : 24 December 2020 15:49:23(UTC)
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People always rip the crap out of Wings, and the Partridge barb didn't help, but I have a soft spot for them. They notched up a buncha hits, including a record breaker; the gigs were epic; and Band on the Run is cuntender for finest Beatle solo effort, up there with All Things Must Pass and Imagine.
I'm enjoying Paul's new album too. I'm a proof of the pudding person... The Other Two never worked for me, but feels like I've been here before. Music Complete was a gem though.
Yeah I'm not making much sense. This is what happens when you stop drinking and then start again. Happy holidays anyway mate. And I like Biker Icon too.

Edited by user 24 December 2020 15:53:52(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
perspexorange  
#88 Posted : 24 December 2020 16:09:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Michael Monkhouse Go to Quoted Post
Yeah I'm not making much sense. This is what happens when you stop drinking and then start again. Happy holidays anyway mate.


And to you! Have a good one!

Just keep drinking. Works for me. Big Grin 👍🏻
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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
Cranelane  
#89 Posted : 26 December 2020 03:34:18(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
I don’t really get your point, Michael.

Also “Thirty years to come up with Night Voice”?
You’re not making any sense?

You seem to be harping on about The Other Two as if that project is acknowledged as Steve’s crowning achievement; the thing that defines him as an artist, rather than something the two of them did in their spare time whilst B&H couldn’t be arsed with New Order.

No one (fans, press or S&G themselves) are saying that it was the finest work they ever created. It was purely a vehicle for the two of them to release soundtracks that they’d been working on during ‘down time’.

There’s plenty of great stuff in the JD/NO canon that’s far more worthy of your attention.

It’s like me saying that Paul McCartney is a talentless shit, just because ‘Biker Like An Icon’ sucked big donkey balls. Whilst at the same time completely dismissing ‘Yesterday’, ‘Eleanor Rigby’, ‘Hey Jude’ etc.

(Incidentally, I’ve always found The Beatles somewhat overrated. Perhaps I should head over to their forums, to mock Macca and his shit side projects.)
Wings... only the band The Beatles could’ve been.


Instead of taking time out and working on side projects, which apart from Bernard's, were never going to set the world on fire, I think the Other Two & Hooky might have been better off if they had been given the opportunity to record their own best songs on New Order albums such as Republic, so in an alternative universe, Gillian would have sung lead one or two tracks on Republic, songs which would have been enhanced by the involvement of Bernard and Hooky, Hooky doing likewise, with Bernard, being the chief song writer, still retaining the mantle of lead singer, this is how The Beatles worked, with everybody getting a chance to bring their best tunes to whatever album was being worked on at the time.

If it worked for the Beatles it could have worked for our Fab Four.

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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
Michael Monkhouse  
#90 Posted : 26 December 2020 05:51:09(UTC)
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And you were just wondering what happened to Keepitcoming...
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ROCKET MICK on 29/12/2020(UTC)
GotBlueEyes  
#91 Posted : 09 January 2021 15:46:01(UTC)
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Does anyone know what it was that SM said in the Other Two 90s interview that made Bernard fall out with him? He mentions it but skirts over what was actually said
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ROCKET MICK on 12/01/2021(UTC)
Coops  
#92 Posted : 01 February 2021 03:06:04(UTC)
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I got a real sense of loss from the last few pages, unavoidable loss through the passage of time partly, but also Morris expressing grim acceptance that whatever made the band come together in the beginning was gone, never to be the same again, bridges burnt, chapters closed.

What a shame, for all of them. And us too, I guess.

Edited by user 01 February 2021 03:06:50(UTC)  | Reason: Don't walk away...

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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Mr. Disco  
#93 Posted : 01 February 2021 03:52:50(UTC)
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Really entertaining and moving book. Up there with Hooky's, if not better. He tells very dark stories with his signature anedoctal tone. He gets so self depracating at times that I feel like some details regarding certain subjects have been edited out, mostly The Other Two. He said in interviews ten years ago there was an entire O² album finished, just waiting for the vocals. I still wonder how much of that ended up on Music Complete.

https://www.gq-magazine....s-joy-division-interview

I really hope they can get to tour soon, so I can try to get my copy signed. Here's the autogprah on vol.1, when he remembered I gave him a plastic tank model:

UserPostedImage
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SeasoningPacket on 02/02/2021(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Coops  
#94 Posted : 01 February 2021 04:41:51(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Disco Go to Quoted Post
He said in interviews ten years ago there was an entire O² album finished, just waiting for the vocals. I still wonder how much of that ended up on Music Complete.

I wondered that too, maybe there will be a third edition where we find out but I doubt it.

Personally, even though someone on here whose name is an alliteration will rip the piss, I'm more hopeful of a book from Gillian(but just the one, love). Perhaps that'll cover Music Complete.

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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
perspexorange  
#95 Posted : 01 February 2021 05:40:12(UTC)
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I'd love Gillian to write a book.

I think her perspective on the band would be very unique.

As I've said before, being the only woman / sensible person in the band must have been very difficult at times. Trying to keep it together when the other four (inc. Rob) were, how shall I put it, 'indulging themselves' on a nightly basis.


As regards bits edited out of Stephen's book, I wonder if the details of how he upset Bernard (alluded to in the book) were excised.

This 'falling out' appears to have happened around the time of the first O2 LP ('93-94), and was following something mentioned in an interview with Steve. I keep meaning to read the O2 interviews from this period in my cuttings collection to try and work out exactly what upset him.
I doubt, considering Steve's pleasant nature, it was anything too bad.

Probably something along the lines of 'if the others would get their thumbs out of their bum, we'd record another LP' or similar.
I can't see Steve slagging off Bernard somehow.

It's probably best that, whatever it is, it's left in the past.


Although the situation with Hooky is less than ideal, I'm very pleased that the other three original members appear to like each other or, at the very least, 'get along'.
Not bad for people who've been working together for 40+ years. Thinking about it, the solo projects were probably a good thing. It gave them much needed time apart.

Edited by user 01 February 2021 05:42:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Mr. Disco  
#96 Posted : 01 February 2021 06:22:21(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
As regards bits edited out of Stephen's book, I wonder if the details of how he upset Bernard (alluded to in the book) were excised.

This 'falling out' appears to have happened around the time of the first O2 LP ('93-94), and was following something mentioned in an interview with Steve. I keep meaning to read the O2 interviews from this period in my cuttings collection to try and work out exactly what upset him.
I doubt, considering Steve's pleasant nature, it was anything too bad.

Probably something along the lines of 'if the others would get their thumbs out of their bum, we'd record another LP' or similar.
I can't see Steve slagging off Bernard somehow.

According to Hooky's book, The Other Two claimed in an interview they'd written most of Republic, or at least its early incarnation that was mostly dismissed by Sumner and Hague, which Hooky himself confirms they did. Steve appears to say on his book he was only joking, perhaps in an attempt to make amends, but Barney took it really badly.
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perspexorange on 01/02/2021(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
perspexorange  
#97 Posted : 01 February 2021 07:32:39(UTC)
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Ah. I can see why that might've annoyed Bernard. I'd forgotten that Hooky had said that in his book.

I'm sure there's a large degree of truth in Steve/Hooky's comments.
Bearing in mind that B & H were off doing Electronic & Revenge respectively, it makes total sense that S&G would be in the farmhouse, putting together tracks ready to dust off once the other other two were ready to start New Ordering.

That shouldn't detract from Bernard's input, which I'm sure was more than significant. He probably did re-write things, but I'm sure there were the bare bones of the original songs still there.

I think Hooky makes reference to the fact that, before Bernard arrived at the farmhouse, 'Regret' was a just a reasonable tune. Apparently, Sumner changed into the classic track it became. I'm probably paraphrasing here, but I think that was the gist of it.

It would be interesting to see if any of the original versions of the 'Republic' tracks end up on the appropriate box set.

Edited by user 01 February 2021 07:33:35(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Mr. Disco  
#98 Posted : 01 February 2021 08:09:04(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
I think Hooky makes reference to the fact that, before Bernard arrived at the farmhouse, 'Regret' was a just a reasonable tune. Apparently, Sumner changed into the classic track it became. I'm probably paraphrasing here, but I think that was the gist of it.

It would be interesting to see if any of the original versions of the 'Republic' tracks end up on the appropriate box set.

Both Stephen and Hooky do state on their books that Regret is allegedly "the last track they wrote all together, as a band", in studio. There seems to be an earlier production finished (or not) with Pascal Gabriel, pre-Hague, back in 1992. Dunno the minutiae of the chronology at that point, but apparently both Bernard and Hooky still had appointments with Electronic and Revenge respectively. The Republic sessions resumed later that year, with S. Hague already on board.
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Andy on 01/02/2021(UTC), ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
Andy  
#99 Posted : 01 February 2021 20:02:07(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr. Disco Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
I think Hooky makes reference to the fact that, before Bernard arrived at the farmhouse, 'Regret' was a just a reasonable tune. Apparently, Sumner changed into the classic track it became. I'm probably paraphrasing here, but I think that was the gist of it.

It would be interesting to see if any of the original versions of the 'Republic' tracks end up on the appropriate box set.

Both Stephen and Hooky do state on their books that Regret is allegedly "the last track they wrote all together, as a band", in studio. There seems to be an earlier production finished (or not) with Pascal Gabriel, pre-Hague, back in 1992. Dunno the minutiae of the chronology at that point, but apparently both Bernard and Hooky still had appointments with Electronic and Revenge respectively. The Republic sessions resumed later that year, with S. Hague already on board.




Yes. Regret and Young Offender credit Pascal Gabriel with "Pre-Production", pointing towards those being the first tracks recorded for Republic. Always thought Young Offender had Other Two DNA. It might be that keyboard riff that jumps octaves which brings to my mind Tasty Fish

World is another that may have had more input from the OT. That would explain Bernard disparaging it on the following tour. In Massachusetts, after a "...how long will it last?" Bernard adds "Too fucking long". And at the Reading Festival, he offered up a sarcastic "Great lyrics on that one" comment after the song finished. Serious cattitude. Meow!
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ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
SeasoningPacket  
#100 Posted : 02 February 2021 15:44:06(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Disco Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perspexorange Go to Quoted Post
I think Hooky makes reference to the fact that, before Bernard arrived at the farmhouse, 'Regret' was a just a reasonable tune. Apparently, Sumner changed into the classic track it became. I'm probably paraphrasing here, but I think that was the gist of it.

It would be interesting to see if any of the original versions of the 'Republic' tracks end up on the appropriate box set.

Both Stephen and Hooky do state on their books that Regret is allegedly "the last track they wrote all together, as a band", in studio. There seems to be an earlier production finished (or not) with Pascal Gabriel, pre-Hague, back in 1992. Dunno the minutiae of the chronology at that point, but apparently both Bernard and Hooky still had appointments with Electronic and Revenge respectively. The Republic sessions resumed later that year, with S. Hague already on board.




Yes. Regret and Young Offender credit Pascal Gabriel with "Pre-Production", pointing towards those being the first tracks recorded for Republic. Always thought Young Offender had Other Two DNA. It might be that keyboard riff that jumps octaves which brings to my mind Tasty Fish

World is another that may have had more input from the OT. That would explain Bernard disparaging it on the following tour. In Massachusetts, after a "...how long will it last?" Bernard adds "Too fucking long". And at the Reading Festival, he offered up a sarcastic "Great lyrics on that one" comment after the song finished. Serious cattitude. Meow!


I think he was referring to the tour and not wanting to be in the band anymore and all the Factory/Hacienda drama.
Hes mocked his own lyrics before. Though it does have an OT style to it. If its by the OT, that was pretty nasty of him.
Either way, his ad-libs are funny usually.

thanks 1 user thanked SeasoningPacket for this useful post.
ROCKET MICK on 11/02/2021(UTC)
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